Wish via a Spell-like ability, any limit on XP spent?

[CyberSpyder]

Only with the wish spell?

 

[IcyCool]

But unlesss you implement some house rule along Artoomis' lines, using an SLA wish to create a magic item of any market value is within the 'safe' guidelines.

-Hyp.

Exactly. I suppose I should have specified that I though Artoomis' suggestion was good, and a house rule.

 

[Saeviomagy]

In reality there is supposed to be a final notation. "Any time a character attempts to be sneaky or abusive with the wish spell, the DM is required to turn into a RatBastard."

Except if it was actually there, then the usual crowd of idiots would decide that "I wish I didn't have to walk all the way to the dungeon" is a sneaky abusive use of the spell, and therefore the character now has no legs, or dies on the spot, or something similar.

And any good DM doesn't have problems changing spells anyway, because his players regard him as a fair and fun arbiter of the rules, not some power-mad nutcase.

See? Rules are there for players to use against BAD DMs, not good ones.

 

[Artoomis]

But unlesss you implement some house rule along Artoomis' lines, using an SLA wish to create a magic item of any market value is within the 'safe' guidelines.

-Hyp.

No, it's not.

...When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5,000 XP.

Also, you cannot lose a level spending XP in this way...

The limit is an XP limit, which means a market value limit, of course, as I explain below. The rules don't give a way to apply this to a Djinn (unless you consider it an NPC), but the limit is there in the rules nonetheless. A DM simply needs to figure out a reasonable way to apply that limit in this situation. I think the best approach is to use the Djinn's ECL and set the limit to the XP difference between min and max for the ECL of the Djinn. In any case, there is a limit within the rules and it's up to the DM to figure out how to apply that limit to this situation.

An example:

A Noble Djinn has level adjustment of +6, so I presume it's ECL = it's Hit Die +6. Is that right? If so, then it is between 10and 30 HD (same as Efreet) or 16 and 36 ECL. If we assume a non-advanced Noble Djinn, it's an ECL of 16.

A 16th level PC Noble Djinn (10HD) could grant a wish for an item up to 5,000 XP plus double the XP cost, up to a total of 16,000 XP normally, up to 33,000 potentially if he saved up and refused to level up to have more XP to spend like this. For simplicity, let's say no saving up like that. That means up to 11,000 XP available to "spend," (16,000 - 5,000) and, because of the wish's "double-cost" rule, any item up to 5,500 XP cost (11,000/2)would be available to be created by a wish.

Since it takes 1/25 market price in XP to create an item, this Djinn could wish for something up to 137,500 gp market value. WOW! That's a +8 (equivalent) weapon or on of the +5 ability stat boosting books. Not, bad, not bad at all. Not totally out of line for a 16th level party, either, though this would represent over 1/2 the total wealth for a 16th level character per DMG table 5-1 (260,000).

I see no reason for an NPC/Monster Nobel Djinn to be able to do better than a PC Djinn could do. Further, reasonable limits could be placed based upon assuming it did not really have a FULL level's worth of XP available, but that's less about strictly rules that reasonableness. Still, I'd say about 1/2 the max possible for the ECL of the Djinn is pretty reasonable, but that's a judgement call.

Anyway, it most definately is limited.

(I wonder how many mistakes I made on ECL, etc., in this post )

 

[Jack Simth]

It might not be RAW, but it was fun; I once dropped a wish in my player's laps; a defeated Glabrezu bargained for it's life (it was down to 5 hp on it's turn... with a paladin and a rogue flanking... granted, it could have passed the concentration check to activate a spell like Greater Teleport without blinking... but it was much more fun to watch the party rogue squirm over what to Wish for).

Anyway, the Rogue managed to Intimidate the thing after combat (a few negative levels due to Enervation from the party Sorceror made it through, so it's saves were down a fair amount), so it acted as "Friendly" for the post-combat wish explanations, and explained the mechanics of the wish.

He could indeed grant a magic item .... but the extra XP cost would end up being drained from the wisher, not the demon; while normally a character couldn't cast Wish enough to drop a level from the XP cost, well, it wouldn't be the DEMON dropping a level from a loss of vital essence, now would it? So he could have wished for a Cloak of Resistance +6; but at 36,000 gp, that translated to 2880 .... which at the time, would have dropped him a level ... which he wasn't willing to go for.

He instead opted for a Permanent Resistance - why, I have no idea - but I granted it ... and a while later, he found out when the party Paladin was checking for evil (at an awkward moment, after having just picked up a cloak of resitance +4 from a chest left behind when the Evil Sorceror fled) that the spell left him with a Strong aura of evil.... as it was durationermanent, and still a 9th level spell.... or technically 6th.... but hey....

I grabbed the mechanism slightly ad-hock off a note in the scrolls section for a scroll of Wish; there's a tag on the cost that says it assumes no XP price in excess of the 5,000 standard for Wish ... which means a scroll wish (and possibly, by extension, those wishes from a Ring of Wishing, a Luckblade, or a spell-like ability) can't exceed it under their own power alone.

As I said - possibly not RAW, but fun. Permits the players to Wish up something big, but adds a price tag they tend to be unwilling to pay fully.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The limit is an XP limit, which means a market value limit, of course, as I explain below. The rules don't give a way to apply this to a Djinn (unless you consider it an NPC), but the limit is there in the rules nonetheless.

The limit is not "You may not create an item such that the XP cost doubled plus 5000 exceeds the amount by which your current XP total exceeds that required to reach your current level."

It's "You cannot lose a level spending XP this way."

A Djinn can use Wish as a Spell-Like Ability to create an item that gives the spell an XP component of a million XP, and since a Spell-Like Ability has no components, he won't lose a level, so he doesn't run afoul of the limitation.

If a Spell-Like Ability did have components, then he would lose XP for casting it, and would be restricted by his XP total relative to his ECL. But it doesn't, so he doesn't, and he isn't.

-Hyp.

 

[Artoomis]

The limit is not "You may not create an item such that the XP cost doubled plus 5000 exceeds the amount by which your current XP total exceeds that required to reach your current level."

It's "You cannot lose a level spending XP this way."

A Djinn can use Wish as a Spell-Like Ability to create an item that gives the spell an XP component of a million XP, and since a Spell-Like Ability has no components, he won't lose a level, so he doesn't run afoul of the limitation.

If a Spell-Like Ability did have components, then he would lose XP for casting it, and would be restricted by his XP total relative to his ECL. But it doesn't, so he doesn't, and he isn't.

-Hyp.

Well, technically you are correct, it seems. DM intervention is required.

P.S.: I did not state "may not create an item such that the XP cost doubled plus 5000 exceeds the amount by which your current XP total exceeds that required to reach your current level.," did I? The limit is clearly that you cannot lose a level, and, further that the XP cost for an item is doubles and it also requires 5,000 XP.

Thus the market price limit is normally, when XP is required, ((current XP - XP required to gain your current level)-5,000)/2)+25. This is not allowed to be a negative number, but, as you correctly point out, does not apply to using a Wish as a Spell-Like Ability.

Finally, note that "A noble djinni can grant three wishes to any being ..." but in no place is this defined as a spell-like ability. It's undefined. I would presume it's spell-like, and it's getting really, really nit-picky, but I suppose you could view this as:

1. Granting the ability for the PC cast a wish, in which case all limitations apply (that's a real stretch but works very well).
2. Casting a wish like a sorceror would (no spell preparation), and all limits apply (this works, but's using XP limits with monsters doesn't work well at all) .
3. Using a spell-like ability (c'mon, now, this really HAS to be it, right?), in which case XP limits do not apply.

I like number 1. Plausible, if barely, by the RAW. It's makes the wish be NOT free which is contrary to the clear intention here, I think.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Finally, note that "A noble djinni can grant three wishes to any being ..." but in no place is this defined as a spell-like ability. It's undefined.

So use Efreet in your example instead

-Hyp.

 

[Artoomis]

So use Efreet in your example instead

-Hyp.

1. Efreeti <> Noble Djinn.
2. I said "it's getting really, really nit-picky." It most certainly is, and only a very narrow reading of the rules allows one to proceed down the road of it being an undefined ability.

In any case, this is an area for common sense to prevail. Perhaps the scroll rule of no XP allowed to be spent is the best one.

 

[CyberSpyder]

1. Efreeti <> Noble Djinn.

His point was that the issue at hand has less to do with Noble Djinn in particular than with Wish as a spell-like ability in general. Since precisely how a Noble Djinn creates its Wish effect is undefined, we can move the specifics to the Efreet, whose method is well-defined as a spell-like ability.