Wizard + Dungeon Door = Invincible Wizard?

[jsepeta]

get the wizard from behind

2. Send in the reinforcements from behind the wizard.

party enters room.
wizard stands in doorway.
monsters in room engage party
monsters in HALLWAY engage wizard -- does wizard turn his attention to them, or enter the room?

**

TRAP:
when door is opened, a false floor IN FRONT of the door collapses.
or poison arrows shoot from the wall surrounding the door or across from it
or a stone block falls from the ceiling IN FRONT of the doorway

 

[Moon-Lancer]

Here is an idea for a specific encounter.

If the wizard hides outside in another room, Have a monster in the room with the encounter flip a switch. An iron gate slides shut blocking the wizard from the rest of the party. Come up with devious ideas from there.

 

[DracoSuave]

I guess what I really meant was that the wizard just doesn't feel like part of the team when taking these tactics. Sure the party is protecting him, and he's dealing out damage, but that's where the synergy stops. Everyone else is helping each other out with CA and other bonuses.

Also, count me a little disappointed that no one got the "squishing your head" joke.

I'm CRUSHING YOUR HEAD!

CRUSH! CRUSH!

Alright.

Here's how to improve this situation. The wizard wants to feel more a part of the melee so he needs to take melee friendly at-wills and encounter and dailies. This is an intuitive and obvious solution.

So. For 1st level:

At-wills: Scorching Burst and Illusory Ambush. Scorching Burst is for when your party's lined them up (which they should do once in a while, or if the enemy has a phalanx) and Illusory Ambush is a -2 to attack wherever you want it. Your front line will LOVE this.
Encounter: Chill Strike or Icy Terrain. Both of them make a hit target have CA so you're helping the rogue out once per encounter (which might just be all he needs) and in both cases you're providing control. One is single target, and the other is multitarget. Either way, you've ruined their day.
Daily: Flaming Sphere and Phantom Chasm. One of these is just a solid damage power you can set up behind the enemy lines, and the other is another way to get CA so you're helping out the melee.


I figure if someone complains they can't help the meleers out, then refuses to take the powers or build that does so... they're the author of their own demise.

Stating out a tiefling wizard: 8 Str, 14 Con, 10 Dex, 18 Int, 13 Wis, 16 Cha. If your wizard wanted to be the charasmatic type and didn't choose tiefling even as his race... well... we can't really help him much after this.

 

[Hambot]

That cover and LOS stuff had me totally confused for a while too because I read the extra rules in the DMG that are so much more anal than the simple rule in the PHB.

And another thread has people talking about dungeon rooms being very bad for wizards to cooperate with other players, as they either use AOE and hurt allies, or sit back and use weak one shot at-wills. You are complaining about a wizard playing right in the same type of conditions over and over again. If there was a lot more room say outdoors, and many monsters, you quickly get more dynamic combats where it becomes worth their while for other PC's to combo with the wizard and set up mulitple monsters for AOE attacks.

 

[LightPhoenix]

I guess what I really meant was that the wizard just doesn't feel like part of the team when taking these tactics. Sure the party is protecting him, and he's dealing out damage, but that's where the synergy stops. Everyone else is helping each other out with CA and other bonuses.

Well, I think that's a bit of the problem with the Wizard class itself. Generally, a Wizard isn't going to want to be in melee, but that's where most of the synergistic "action" is, so to speak. Part of it is also the way the class is designed: hinder the enemy, as opposed to help allies. You certainly can play a Wizard more up front (and that's what I personally do) but you need to spend a bit more on defense to compensate (and you really need to take Thunderwave).

Also, count me a little disappointed that no one got the "squishing your head" joke.

I'm hoping they do another tour soon, as I missed out on the one this year.

 

[knasser]

A lot of very useful advice has already been given so rather than repeat it or try to come up with my own variations on "put a monster behind him" etc, I'm going to come at this from a different angle.

I see two problems of misunderstanding. The first is that the player considers their character "squishy." I understand that in previous editions of D&D this was the case but in 4e it is much less so. Yes - the wizard is squishier than the fighters, etc, but he can actually take quite a bit of danger without risk of insta-kill. In short, your character is acting as if the first goblin is going to hack his head off in one swing. Losing hit points is like getting arrested. Before it happens, you're terrified. But after the first one, you realise it hasn't killed you and its only if it keeps on happening that you're going to come to a bad end. Your wizard needs to realise being attacked is not the end of the world and that 4e is designed for this. If the player does not accept this then he will resent personally you forcing his character into melee. I bet he's a staff wizard! You should put him in a situation where he has to beat up a goblin guard in melee in a dead magic zone to free his friends or something. Or perhaps there is some demon that can sense when magic is being used and if he magic missiles the guard, game over. Like the arrested analogy, he'll hate the situation, but afterwards he wont stop boasting about it to people. : D

The second problem is related, but broader. The Wizard isn't doing as much to help the party as his team-mates. For some reason, this is considered acceptable. In fact, it is probably considered acceptable to the point that if you do challenge the party to the level that you ought to be able to challenge them were everyone pulling their weight, they still wont adapt their tactics and will just blame you for being too tough on them. Your real challenge is to shift this bloody mindset they are stuck in. I mean, why don't the other characters who are risking their lives daily in going steel to steel with the enemy resent the coward who hides behind the door and chucks ranged attacks in, running at the first sign of danger? That's the real issue. Maybe you could have an NPC warlord or fighter or something along to mock the coward. Who knows? But you need to do something otherwise the wizard will always perceive your efforts to target him as unfair based on the strange notion that he's special somehow. Sure - he can't and shouldn't play the role of defender, but it's a gradiant between that and lilly-livered coward, not a binary either-or.

But just to add to the more tactical suggestions given eariler, also consider a running encounter. E.g. a long hallway with many side passages from which minions pour in constantly. The players have to get to the Plot Point at the far end so the wizard will have to stick with the rest of the party as it's a running battle. Bonus points if the wizard doesn't realise it's a running battle and tries to stay behind to give covering fire and then gets cut off and has to go toe to toe with some goblins whilst waiting for a rescue or fighting his way free. In fact - this is exactly the encounter I would use as my first lesson in "Don't Hide In Doorways." : D

 

[RigaMortus2]

I've been a bit annoyed with the party's wizard lately. I've been sending them through a sizeable dungeon, with doors and every combat, he simply sits behind the door and attacks from there, while the rest of the part moves in and actually engages the enemy. I know this is part of the wizard's job, but I was wondering if I'm missing something in my encounter design that could improve upon that might get the wizard to move into the actual encounter area.

I don't see the problem here. You said it yourself, that IS what the Wizard is supposed to do. Hang back and lob spells. That being said, some things to consider to mayabe challenge the Wizard a little bit...

1) Are you using Cover correctly? If he is on the other side of the door, he is going to be hitting some cover when he tries to target enemies at certain angles.
2) Make enemies come from behind the Wizard.
3) Use ranged attacks against Wizard.
4) Perhaps find a monster that can teleport or "pull" the Wizard into melee combat (Swordmage Lightning Lure spell comes to mind).

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Well, I guess I am just repeating all advice here, but anyway:

- Encounter Area Design:
Encounter Areas lead to the most interesting results if there are multiple entrances to each room. It is also a good idea to have some enemies delay entering the encounter area (or at least presenting themselves to the enemy).
This way, the enemies can attempt to surround the party - and vice versa. Skirmishers and Lurkers will try to use the "side routes" to get to the squishies. They might meet some Strikers send by the party that try the same with the monster squishies.

A good design might have the party enter an area and be allowed to explore it somewhat. The enemies might start unaware, but either way, the party only gets into combat with the enemies once they are further in to the area. Rooms are connected with each other, and there is more then one path between any two rooms. This will allows allow the option of surrounding enemies.

- Encounter Group Design and Tactics:
A group of soldiers, brutes or melee controllers can be used to stop the parties moves. Artilleries, Ranged Controllers fire from the back and target the most vulnerable targets. Skirmishers and Lurkers will try to bypass the "grand melee" between party and melee monsters.

Monsters should try to lure the party closer into the encounter area, so that the skirmishers and lurkers have room at the sidelines and behind the party to surround the party or hack down ranged strikers and controllers (Warlocks, Rangers, Wizards as prime example).



It will be interesting to note how different party setups can change the outlook of such encounters. A party with two defenders can actually build up two defense lines, so that even the enemies trying to sneak in from behind can sneak in. But a party with two Strikers might take down the initial front line so fast that the "sneaky" bastards might come a little too late (but will certainly put a lot of pressure on the Strikers to move fast)

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

You'd love my mage, then, Appleseeth. He's usually to be found adjacent to the defender. I want to use a lot of blast and burst (many of the best spells) and always be included in any bonus the cleric throws around. Things like being caught in his divine glow and get +2 to all attacks for my upcoming close blast 5 or close burst 3... that's pure gold. Beside, I don't want to finish the day with full surges while a buddy died. Of course, my wizard's AC is better than the rogue's so there's no excuse to hide in the back all the time!

That being said, not all wizard are built to be this agressive. Let them hang back. Hit them with a trap or a lurker, once in a while. Blitz them whenever the other PCs can't hold the line. But don't campaign against the careful wizard who hangs back. I'm not convinced he is actually playing his wizard to the maximum of his potential in the first place, no need to single him out for special punishment.

There is much experimentation to be done, but I think the best 4e wizard is, unlike his 3e counterpart, an agressive war wizard who sticks close to the melee line, casts a lot of powerful blast and burst while using and abusing the defenders marking ability.

 

[Nail]

Losing hit points is like getting arrested. Before it happens, you're terrified. But after the first one, you realise it hasn't killed you and its only if it keeps on happening that you're going to come to a bad end.

What an excellent analogy! knasser has nailed it.