Wizard Sleep CSR Ruling

[evilbob]

It took me a few reads to understand your steps, but you are right. Another way to put it, though, is:

- attack; on hit, target is slowed
- after first failed save, target is asleep

And then the target stays asleep until it saves. It does go slowly, in that the target gets an entire turn before it can fall asleep, but it's only one failed save to put them into a place where coup de graces can rain down.

And if you have an item that makes them fail a save and are otherwise good to reduce saves, you can put them to sleep for sure and then have a good chance of keeping them this way. All of this ignores the hit chance, but there are other powers that can make you hit.

 

[Morgan_Scott82]

Though I think most people are well aware of this, I think it is worth reiterating the sequence of events necessary to actually put someone to sleep with this spell:

1) You have to hit with the spell. A lot of attacks tend to fail at this point.
2) They have to fail their first save vs. slow. Another large chunk of attacks fail at this point.
3) They have to fail their save vs. sleep. Yet another large number of attacks fail at this point.

And while abilities like Orb of Imposition can effect one of those three, it is going to be quite rare that you will get good bonuses for all three.

So, while the spell sometimes seems overpowered, I think in practice it tends to fail often, even for Wizards built with this spell in mind.

Which is why, though my wizard has it in his spell book, has a good wisdom, and has orb of imposition, he still usually prepares the more reliable flaming sphere instead.

For one wizard working by himself this might be true, however for a well coordinated party working as a unit its not that hard at all. Combat advantage, bonuses from leaders, defense penalties from conditions, orb of Karmic Resonance, Phrenic Crown, and Orb of imposition, you can get this off pretty reliably.

Even my players are frustrated when they weazel their way around what the rules say should be a climatic battle with a simple exploit.

 

[Caliban]

Though I think most people are well aware of this, I think it is worth reiterating the sequence of events necessary to actually put someone to sleep with this spell:

1) You have to hit with the spell. A lot of attacks tend to fail at this point.
2) They have to fail their first save vs. slow. Another large chunk of attacks fail at this point.
3) They have to fail their save vs. sleep. Yet another large number of attacks fail at this point.

And while abilities like Orb of Imposition can effect one of those three, it is going to be quite rare that you will get good bonuses for all three.

So, while the spell sometimes seems overpowered, I think in practice it tends to fail often, even for Wizards built with this spell in mind.

Which is why, though my wizard has it in his spell book, has a good wisdom, and has orb of imposition, he still usually prepares the more reliable flaming sphere instead.

Everything you say is true, but there are things to mitigate the problem. In my case, my orb wizard is an elf, with Elven Precision and Wild Elf luck (so if he misses he can re-rol with a +2+1d4 bonus), and he uses the Orb of Mental Domination, which has a Daily that makes the target roll all saves from your spell twice and take the lower. Ups the odds of the target failing that first save.

It can still easily fail, but twice now I've put a solo to sleep for more than a round (long enough for multiple auto-crits).

 

[Dracorat]

Are the characters also immune to incapacitating effects?

Not usually, unless it's something they have going per "regular rules"

If not, isn't that a little one-sided

Yes. And no one has an issue with it.

and render a good number of their powers useless?

Not for the majority of battles.

I'm curious what your Wizards use against in Elite/Solo monsters.

Stuff that moves / slows etc. (Which I still allow)

Regardless, I would argue that Sleep isn't an immediate incapacitation. It's an immediate slow effect, with the chance for incapacitation.

The slow I still allow. The sleep I don't.

 

[Heliac]

Uhm, I'm still trying to get a ruling on whether Orb of Imposition can be applied to saves of both the "unconscious" and the "slowed" conditions, or only one of them (i.e. are the two conditions seen as one effect)?

 

[Mistwell]

Everything you say is true, but there are things to mitigate the problem. In my case, my orb wizard is an elf, with Elven Precision and Wild Elf luck (so if he misses he can re-rol with a +2+1d4 bonus), and he uses the Orb of Mental Domination, which has a Daily that makes the target roll all saves from your spell twice and take the lower. Ups the odds of the target failing that first save.

So you are now using 1) A daily spell, 2) your class encounter power, 3) your racial daily power, and 4) your magic item daily power, all to increase the odds of it working.

That sounds like a recipe for disaster. You've focused too much on your one-shot, and left many aspects of your character empty. Those abilities are better used sprinkled throughout the day and regular encounters.

It can still easily fail, but twice now I've put a solo to sleep for more than a round (long enough for multiple auto-crits).

And how many combats happened where you did worse because you focused so much on the possibility of killing a solo once a day?

 

[Mistwell]

For one wizard working by himself this might be true, however for a well coordinated party working as a unit its not that hard at all. Combat advantage, bonuses from leaders, defense penalties from conditions, orb of Karmic Resonance, Phrenic Crown, and Orb of imposition, you can get this off pretty reliably.

Even my players are frustrated when they weazel their way around what the rules say should be a climatic battle with a simple exploit.

Wow, your scenario is ever MORE unlikely than the "I dedicated my entire character to this trick". Now you are dedicating the entire character AND THE PARTY, to the hope this trick will work? And what, the wizard is dual wielding orbs and has access to both their daily powers in the same round for this, all while they set it up to go off with a leaders bonus and the other party members happened to perfectly time the combat advantage, etc..?

The odds of this combination happening, and being worth it on a regular basis, are near zero. It's not realistic in play, and your claim that this is a "reliable" tactic is, in my opinion, incredulous. I'd prefer to discuss the actual use of the spell in play, rather than theories on paper of what could happen if the stars aligned one game.

 

[aurance]

Wow, your scenario is ever MORE unlikely than the "I dedicated my entire character to this trick". Now you are dedicating the entire character AND THE PARTY, to the hope this trick will work? And what, the wizard is dual wielding orbs and has access to both their daily powers in the same round for this, all while they set it up to go off with a leaders bonus and the other party members happened to perfectly time the combat advantage, etc..?

The odds of this combination happening, and being worth it on a regular basis, are near zero. It's not realistic in play, and your claim that this is a "reliable" tactic is, in my opinion, incredulous. I'd prefer to discuss the actual use of the spell in play, rather than theories on paper of what could happen if the stars aligned one game.

Actually, no. The solo lockout wizard is still incredibly effective when he's not locking out solos. And the party leader (tactical warlord)? Well, he's able to do his thing regardless of who the enemy is. The point is, this party is capable of handling regular threats as well as any other party, except they make solos a trivial non-issue. And that's where the problem lies.

 

[Ahglock]

Here are the things that affect saves for Sleep:

Orb of Imposition wizard class feature (PHB, usually from -4 to -9 or so, 1/enc)
Phrenic Crown (AV p.144, -1/-2/-3 to saves for Wil powers)
Wizard of the Spiral Tower with Cunning Longsword (AV p.67, -2/-3/-4 to saves),
or Orb of Ultimate Imposition (AV p.96, -1 to -6 to Orb of Imposition power, daily)
Spell Focus (PHB, -2)

Those items don't stack I hope?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Those items don't stack I hope?

Doesn't look like anything prevents it...

-Hyp.