Wizards: Already Too Strong?

[mcintma]

If you want to use your method of balance, where wizards are extremely vulnerable at low levels and insanely powerful at high levels, then the problem is that during a level-1 playtest my wizard completely outshone the other characters and never came near to dying. If you prefer a more modern type of balance in which classes are balanced with each other at each level, then the problem is that during a level-1 playtest my wizard completely outshone the other characters and never came near to dying.

There's a thread on WOTC forum lamenting the constant death of the wizards in playtest. It seems that, without AOO, there's little to prevent the enemy from gang-banging the wimpy wiz in melee or at range (except a kind DM). This rings true, though mind you I have not ran a playtest myself yet to verify.

Thread here:
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[Nebulous]

I like it.

another option, reduce it by 10 feet per hit as it continues to freeze. But i also like the idea of it not being as effective against high HP. Question is though, is that maximum hit points or current hit points? Is a heavily wounded owlbear easier to freeze than a full strength one?

 

[KesselZero]

There's a thread on WOTC forum lamenting the constant death of the wizards in playtest. It seems that, without AOO, there's little to prevent the enemy from gang-banging the wimpy wiz in melee or at range (except a kind DM). This rings true, though mind you I have not ran a playtest myself yet to verify.

Thread here:
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That's a good point. It didn't happen at my playtest, but I do definitely see how it could easily happen, especially if the DM were feeling nasty. I think though that that may be a separate issue from the wizard's damage output (unless the argument is that they're capable of causing a lot of mayhem but get killed easily). I'm not sure.

 

[Whytebio]

If you want to use your method of balance, where wizards are extremely vulnerable at low levels and insanely powerful at high levels, then the problem is that during a level-1 playtest my wizard completely outshone the other characters and never came near to dying. If you prefer a more modern type of balance in which classes are balanced with each other at each level, then the problem is that during a level-1 playtest my wizard completely outshone the other characters and never came near to dying.

I'll admit that I'm revising my opinion of Magic Missile, Light, and Detect Magic. Ray of Frost is still a worry, but what I found while playing is that every time I dropped an actual spell it was a game-changer or encounter-winner. We had three fights and I dominated two of them with Sleep and Burning Hands; the one I didn't dominate was against two hobgoblins and over in two minutes anyway. My concern ultimately is that after those spells are gone, the wizard is still pretty useful in combat (MM against kobolds or rats is an auto-kill, Ray of Frost is great against solos, and Shocking Grasp is better than either of the rogue's attacks). So in my playtest at least, the wizard was better than the rest of the party when dropping real spells, then more or less comparable when using cantrips. That's my concern.

a) Alas, I have not play-tested the game, so I can provide no greater insight than my conjecturing will allow. Suffice to say, if the mouth-breather of the party, er, excuse me, if the fighter of the party and battle-cleric are doing their jobs, the wizards supple body should be scar-free at the end of each encounter. I can only imagine that at these tender levels your wizard will swiftly establish him/herself a new career as a floor-rug in the Orc chieftains bathroom should these two henchmen fail in their protective services.

b) It sounds familiar in situation to Pathfinder. In that setting, the games in which I've played the featured heavy combat in the early levels the back-up cantrips are almost essential. They're effectively a free light crossbow but in magical flavor. The encounter-changers could be expended at fitting and proper times, but if the hordes of enemies continue to encroach upon the party (as they are want to do when Kobolds, orcs or goblins are involved), then the cantrips provide the Wizard with a back-up plan should he run out of proper spells to cast, lest he become little more than a glorified commoner for the party to carry.

I can understand a certain level of envy towards the wizard for this fortunate capacity. However, bare in mind that at the same time the wizard has the worst HP, the worst saves, the worst armor, the worst skills and the worst....pretty much everything amongst a party, and I see the wizards constant usefulness in combat as coming with a rather steep price. At these precarious levels all it takes is a few stray arrows to cut short the wizards arcane ambition.

 

[slobo777]

I didn't mind magic missile auto-hitting so much - that's vintage. On the other hand, I found it odd that after reading the bit on spells prepared at higher slots being more potent, the one spell that scales does so automatically without requiring a higher slot.

But magic missiles fired multiple times in 3.5. I don't think it should be problematic here either.

I think the problems start at level 3. With a mean of 7 auto damage (and the option to split this to two opponents), the Wizard starts to look as good as e.g. the Ranger for DPR, but only using his or her back-up ability.

Assuming the melee characters don't get scaling like this in DDN, I'd go with it Magic Missile needing to hit, or not scaling like the old rules, or just replace with some other at will.

 

[eamon]

I think the problems start at level 3. With a mean of 7 auto damage (and the option to split this to two opponents), the Wizard starts to look as good as e.g. the Ranger for DPR, but only using his or her back-up ability.

Assuming the melee characters don't get scaling like this in DDN, I'd go with it Magic Missile needing to hit, or not scaling like the old rules, or just replace with some other at will.

The melee characters will get scaling. It's been mentioned explicitly for the fighter (he'll have multiple attacks), and it's also a necessary design consequence of inflating hit point numbers; otherwise combats would grind on forever eventually.

So, it's most likely that once they've worked out the levelling scheme that magic missile's balance vis-a-vis a plain melee attack stays about the same; in other words: very little damage, but reliably done.

 

[eamon]

another option, reduce it by 10 feet per hit as it continues to freeze. But i also like the idea of it not being as effective against high HP. Question is though, is that maximum hit points or current hit points? Is a heavily wounded owlbear easier to freeze than a full strength one?

I'm not a huge fan of depending on hitpoint numbers:

• It shoves your face into a decidedly metagame concept. I don't want players trying to guess exactly how many hitpoints a creature has. I certainly don't want players making an action that turns out useless because they didn't metagame enough. No need to encourage metagaming.
• The cantrips are supposed to remain useful across levels; so this would require scaling hitpoint thresholds which is additional pain.

Perhaps instead there could be the option of letting a hit opponent shake off the effect with some gritting of teeth. I.e.; at the cost of some non-insignificant cold damage, the restrained condition is removed and the creature merely slowed or (for more damage) removed completely. The idea here being that in most situations you'd want the creature to remain immobilized, but if it's determined enough (i.e. life-or-death for solo) it can avoid the affect.



But remember that slowing down one creature down is probably easy (ball bearings, caltrops), so there's a minimum effectiveness here below which the power becomes pointless. It's a tricky balance.