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WizLock? A silly idea?
- Thread starter Radevilen
- Start date
I agree that the warzard would work better than the wizlock. Several of the classes just don't work all that well as multiclass options in the current system as it stands. You're blocked by:
* Not getting class abilities which are requirements for paragon paths.
* In some cases, weapon and implement requirements, and / or the language of powers and abilities saying this implement is only for this type of spells, or 'you gain a bonus to your wizard spells with' X, etc.
* Powers that improve based on a mark or a curse, when you don't have that mark or curse as a multiclass.
Of the multiclassing options I've considered for various characters, warlord, paladin, fighter, cleric, and wizard seem to work well and are generally good choices. The other three are situational and use-impaired.
Cleric: Good. Get healing ability. Get Religion. (Could open the door for becoming a ritualist with one feat.) Paragon paths that don't restrict multiclassers (prerequisite is only "cleric class")
Fighter: Good. Skill list is fairly generic but if you were going to take one of the five anyway, it would be worth it. Paragon paths are generally non-restrictive. +1 to attack once per encounter, and target is marked until end of your next turn is so-so.
Paladin: Generally as good as or better than fighter or cleric, but one ability in both Hospitaler and Champion of Order depends on a feature you either can't get, or can only use for one turn per encounter.
Ranger: Great skill choices. Hunter's Quarry doesn't seem to have a time limit like the marks of Fighter and Paladin multiclass choices in the RAW. It only says you get to use Hunter's Quarry once/encounter. A little vague. However, you can't take ANY of the Ranger's paragon paths, as the require the fighting style special feature. So it's only good if you were sticking with your primary class' paragon paths.
Rogue: Highly situational, mostly due to weapon choices. Could be good, could be horrible. You have to compromise on weapons. One specific skill, but a very useful one. Sneak attack does not make it a good choice for most multiclassers because sneak attack is weapon restricted ("I know how to stab someone in the kidneys while they're distracted, but only with a light blade, crossbow, or sling(?!)"). Cat burglar powers are weapon restricted. Daggermaster, obviously, weapon restricted. Master Infiltrator weapon restricted. Shadow Assassin weapon restricted, features an ability that depends on something multiclassers only get once per encounter.
Warlock: Horrible. One skill from warlock's list, which isn't too bad of a list, admittedly. The other part is that you get an at-will power as an encounter power and are considered part of that power's pact. Problems: the RAW seems to nix the idea of combining implements. While the feat lets you use a pact blade or rod, it won't work with your wizard spells. Your staff or orb won't work with your warlock spells. The damage for the at-will you're getting isn't that much better (if at all) than other standard powers for any given class, you'd be getting them for the secondary effect. They kindly say that you can take the warlock paragon paths, golly gee thanks, but:
Doomsayer lets you deal the extra damage of your Warlock's Curse. The one you don't have. Feytouched has abilities that key off of the Fey Pact's teleport. The one you also don't have. Lifestealer's key level 11 ability keys off of Warlock's Curse. Again, you're screwed.
Warlord: Good. See cleric.
Wizard: Good, as many characters don't have the arcana skill on their list and that puts you one feat away from ritual caster. An extra attack, which you can use to get an AoE or a pushing blast your primary class probably doesn't have. Battle Mage should be good for anyone. Blood Mage has some issues with specifying wizard encounter powers on the features list, but you can get one with one feat at 4th level. Spellstorm Mage is nice, and in the RAW for Storm Spell it says "spell" rather than "wizard power" so a warlock should find that useful. Wizard of the Spiral Tower is also good for warlocks because you can use a longsword in place of a wand as an "arcane implement" (again, it doesn't specify whether its for wizard spells or powers, so it's longswords as an implement for any arcane class.)
Initiate of the Faith, Student of the Sword, Soldier of the Faith, Student of Battle, and Arcane Initiate are really pretty good, even if you just take the feat by itself, or just take the feat and a paragon path from the other class.
Warrior of the Wild, Sneak of Shadows, and Pact Initiate are somewhat broken because of prerequisites, unappealing weapon requirements and the language used in paragon path or their dependence on abilities multiclassers can't get, or due to the impaired use of the ability the feat gives you. The RAW for those classes and the way the feats were set up just limits the attractiveness of these three. They should have been more careful with the writing on those three classes, as they made a lot of things too specific to be useful to anyone else.
* Not getting class abilities which are requirements for paragon paths.
* In some cases, weapon and implement requirements, and / or the language of powers and abilities saying this implement is only for this type of spells, or 'you gain a bonus to your wizard spells with' X, etc.
* Powers that improve based on a mark or a curse, when you don't have that mark or curse as a multiclass.
Of the multiclassing options I've considered for various characters, warlord, paladin, fighter, cleric, and wizard seem to work well and are generally good choices. The other three are situational and use-impaired.
Cleric: Good. Get healing ability. Get Religion. (Could open the door for becoming a ritualist with one feat.) Paragon paths that don't restrict multiclassers (prerequisite is only "cleric class")
Fighter: Good. Skill list is fairly generic but if you were going to take one of the five anyway, it would be worth it. Paragon paths are generally non-restrictive. +1 to attack once per encounter, and target is marked until end of your next turn is so-so.
Paladin: Generally as good as or better than fighter or cleric, but one ability in both Hospitaler and Champion of Order depends on a feature you either can't get, or can only use for one turn per encounter.
Ranger: Great skill choices. Hunter's Quarry doesn't seem to have a time limit like the marks of Fighter and Paladin multiclass choices in the RAW. It only says you get to use Hunter's Quarry once/encounter. A little vague. However, you can't take ANY of the Ranger's paragon paths, as the require the fighting style special feature. So it's only good if you were sticking with your primary class' paragon paths.
Rogue: Highly situational, mostly due to weapon choices. Could be good, could be horrible. You have to compromise on weapons. One specific skill, but a very useful one. Sneak attack does not make it a good choice for most multiclassers because sneak attack is weapon restricted ("I know how to stab someone in the kidneys while they're distracted, but only with a light blade, crossbow, or sling(?!)"). Cat burglar powers are weapon restricted. Daggermaster, obviously, weapon restricted. Master Infiltrator weapon restricted. Shadow Assassin weapon restricted, features an ability that depends on something multiclassers only get once per encounter.
Warlock: Horrible. One skill from warlock's list, which isn't too bad of a list, admittedly. The other part is that you get an at-will power as an encounter power and are considered part of that power's pact. Problems: the RAW seems to nix the idea of combining implements. While the feat lets you use a pact blade or rod, it won't work with your wizard spells. Your staff or orb won't work with your warlock spells. The damage for the at-will you're getting isn't that much better (if at all) than other standard powers for any given class, you'd be getting them for the secondary effect. They kindly say that you can take the warlock paragon paths, golly gee thanks, but:
Doomsayer lets you deal the extra damage of your Warlock's Curse. The one you don't have. Feytouched has abilities that key off of the Fey Pact's teleport. The one you also don't have. Lifestealer's key level 11 ability keys off of Warlock's Curse. Again, you're screwed.
Warlord: Good. See cleric.
Wizard: Good, as many characters don't have the arcana skill on their list and that puts you one feat away from ritual caster. An extra attack, which you can use to get an AoE or a pushing blast your primary class probably doesn't have. Battle Mage should be good for anyone. Blood Mage has some issues with specifying wizard encounter powers on the features list, but you can get one with one feat at 4th level. Spellstorm Mage is nice, and in the RAW for Storm Spell it says "spell" rather than "wizard power" so a warlock should find that useful. Wizard of the Spiral Tower is also good for warlocks because you can use a longsword in place of a wand as an "arcane implement" (again, it doesn't specify whether its for wizard spells or powers, so it's longswords as an implement for any arcane class.)
Initiate of the Faith, Student of the Sword, Soldier of the Faith, Student of Battle, and Arcane Initiate are really pretty good, even if you just take the feat by itself, or just take the feat and a paragon path from the other class.
Warrior of the Wild, Sneak of Shadows, and Pact Initiate are somewhat broken because of prerequisites, unappealing weapon requirements and the language used in paragon path or their dependence on abilities multiclassers can't get, or due to the impaired use of the ability the feat gives you. The RAW for those classes and the way the feats were set up just limits the attractiveness of these three. They should have been more careful with the writing on those three classes, as they made a lot of things too specific to be useful to anyone else.
StephenHawking
First Post
Some synergies you can try the other way is...
warlock infernal has pushes and slides, use bloodmage pp from wizard to maximize the benefit of sliding your foe, as well as the int needed.
Wand is an implement for both classes... its amazing to not spend your wealth on more than 1 implement.
Temp hp + bloodmage ability that deals dmg to you, synergizes really well.
Taking dmg will activate your infernal at will, Hellish rebuke.
And here's a build snapshot:
http://popidol.pbwiki.com/GithWarlockwiz011
Edit to add: This abuses the fact dailies like bigby's icy grasp or mord's sword can be used repeatedly with bolstering blood.
warlock infernal has pushes and slides, use bloodmage pp from wizard to maximize the benefit of sliding your foe, as well as the int needed.
Wand is an implement for both classes... its amazing to not spend your wealth on more than 1 implement.
Temp hp + bloodmage ability that deals dmg to you, synergizes really well.
Taking dmg will activate your infernal at will, Hellish rebuke.
And here's a build snapshot:
http://popidol.pbwiki.com/GithWarlockwiz011
Edit to add: This abuses the fact dailies like bigby's icy grasp or mord's sword can be used repeatedly with bolstering blood.
Looking at my summary above, you've got to wonder why they were so restrictive on some multiclass options, but not others. They seem more or less balanced otherwise.
With wizard you can take a paragon path that lets you use a longsword as an arcane implement. That's good for any class that has arcane powers with the implement keyword.
But then, with warlock, the multiclass feat lets you use a pact blade or rod, it only lets you do so for warlock powers.
If they would just change the language and loosen up some of the restrictions, I think all the multiclass feats could be almost equally good, depending on the character you're going for.
I think they seriously overestimated the advantage of Sneak Attack and not having to spend a minor action marking/cursing your target for the extra damage... it's already in some cases more limited than Warlock's Curse or Hunter's Quarry because you have to set up combat advantage. Then they add the weapon restrictions, and it's just overcompensated. If a rogue is meant to be limited in weapon choices, limit them in the proficiency list or on specific class powers. Doing so for the special ability and the paragon paths just hurts anyone considering multiclassing for no apparent reason.
With wizard you can take a paragon path that lets you use a longsword as an arcane implement. That's good for any class that has arcane powers with the implement keyword.
But then, with warlock, the multiclass feat lets you use a pact blade or rod, it only lets you do so for warlock powers.
If they would just change the language and loosen up some of the restrictions, I think all the multiclass feats could be almost equally good, depending on the character you're going for.
I think they seriously overestimated the advantage of Sneak Attack and not having to spend a minor action marking/cursing your target for the extra damage... it's already in some cases more limited than Warlock's Curse or Hunter's Quarry because you have to set up combat advantage. Then they add the weapon restrictions, and it's just overcompensated. If a rogue is meant to be limited in weapon choices, limit them in the proficiency list or on specific class powers. Doing so for the special ability and the paragon paths just hurts anyone considering multiclassing for no apparent reason.
Danceofmasks
First Post
Spiral tower wiz only works for wizards .. 'cos you have to choose an implement you specialise in ...
Looking at the Warlock/Wizard powers, it seems to work to retrain your feats at levels 13 and 15 in order to swap powers into wizard powers.
Looking at the Warlock/Wizard powers, it seems to work to retrain your feats at levels 13 and 15 in order to swap powers into wizard powers.
Goumindong
First Post
You don't need to retrain. Power swap powers let you choose again each time you level without spending your retrain.
Danceofmasks
First Post
If you already had them .. at heroic tier, there's not enough gain for spending the feat.
Thanks!
Well this was my first post on EnWorld and I honestly did not expect such a flood of replies. Thanks so much for your input.
A little more detail on the character I wanted to make:
I wanted to make a Control wizard who uses the staff implement (cause I like that AC boost..also, every wizard needs a staff). I wanted to make a dwarf. I know their stats aren't the greatest for wizards, but the con bonus works well for the Staff powers.
The only reason I wanted to make the Wizlock was due to the miniature I bought. Originally the mini is a dwarf rogue, but I cut the knife out of the right hand and put a staff in it's place. I was thinking of switching the knife to the off-hand and it could eventually become a pact blade.
I am still not sure which direction I will take the character...but perhaps I will post a pic of the mini when I finish the conversion.
Thanks again for all your input!
Well this was my first post on EnWorld and I honestly did not expect such a flood of replies. Thanks so much for your input.
A little more detail on the character I wanted to make:
I wanted to make a Control wizard who uses the staff implement (cause I like that AC boost..also, every wizard needs a staff). I wanted to make a dwarf. I know their stats aren't the greatest for wizards, but the con bonus works well for the Staff powers.
The only reason I wanted to make the Wizlock was due to the miniature I bought. Originally the mini is a dwarf rogue, but I cut the knife out of the right hand and put a staff in it's place. I was thinking of switching the knife to the off-hand and it could eventually become a pact blade.
I am still not sure which direction I will take the character...but perhaps I will post a pic of the mini when I finish the conversion.
Thanks again for all your input!
RyvenCedrylle
First Post
CON also works well for the Star Pact powers, which is perhaps what you meant to say?
I have a half-elf Wizard who took Eyebite for sticky situations. It's not a true mutli-class, obviously, but it's come in really handy on more than one occasion. Depending on the splay of enemies, an invisible (even to only one foe) double move is better than a teleport for low HP characters.
I have a half-elf Wizard who took Eyebite for sticky situations. It's not a true mutli-class, obviously, but it's come in really handy on more than one occasion. Depending on the splay of enemies, an invisible (even to only one foe) double move is better than a teleport for low HP characters.
Tony Vargas
Legend
Dwarves make fine wizards in 3e. WIS boosts two of the the Wiz's at-will spells, qualifies your for expanded spellbook, and fuels the Orb Mastery's powerful save penalty, CON boosts hps, surges, FORT save, and the Staff Mastery ex post facto defense bonus.Radevilen said:
While they don't boost the Wizard's primary, they boost two valuable secondaries. Dwarves make excellent fighters for the same reason.
You could easily afford a 16 (after racial adjustmetn) in both CON and INT (and WIS, for that matter), so any Infernal Warlock spells you learned would work just fine for you. How effecitvely you can use a staff as an implement in one hand and an off-hand weapon/implement in the other is debateable, though, so check with your DM.
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