WotC 4E D&D bloat (was Forked Thread: Pathfinder (PFRPG) bloat)

[ggroy]

The real question is whether the new structure of the game and the new focus on long term, sustainable business (subscriptions, increasingly modular game, planned editions instead of waiting for crisis points like the 2e/3e changeover) will allow WotC to stretch out the non-bloat portion of a game's lifespan long enough to then switch to 5e without feeling rushed.

And of course that gets to an entirely new issue... the feeling that an edition change is "too early" is, in a certain sense, an argument that there wasn't enough bloat yet, that more bloat would have been appreciated, because then, seeing the damage caused by the bloat more clearly, the fan base would be more accepting of an edition change. I have no idea what to say about that.

Perhaps WotC's 4E business model is to create enough bloat fast enough themselves, such that a 5E D&D is viable and more palatable within 4 or 5 years. They may be looking at the 4 to 5 year lifespan of 3.5E from mid-2003 to early 2008, as an optimal edition lifetime for 4E.

At the same time, they can't release too many books every month. They don't want to risk what happened with the glut back in the 2E AD&D days of too many settings and too many books. They probably also still have fresh in their minds, the glut of Forgotten Realms and Eberron books during 3.5E's lifespan which may not have been good sellers. I wouldn't be surprised if many of the 3.5E Forgotten Realms and Eberron books did not even sell out their first printings. I've seen several 3.5E Forgotten Realms and Eberron splatbooks in the discount book section at several "big box" bookstores for $6 a pop.

With the economy presently in the toilet and possibly for the next year or so, perhaps the one new book released per month strategy is the only one which is presently sustainable. All the extra stuff is put onto DDI, instead of books. If some of the extra stuff on DDI turns out to be promising, they'll eventually make their way into the yearly Dragon Magazine Annuals books they have planned or even possible future splatbooks.

WotC probably still has the release of the 3.5E core books and subsequent fallout still fresh in their minds, and don't want an obvious repeat of it with a 4.5E. In hindsight, releasing 3.5E just three years after 3E was probably just too soon. There wasn't much of an appetite for a new edition, just after three years.

From looking at the catalog of 3E splatbooks released by WotC before mid-2003, there didn't appear to be any major bloat issues happening at that time in their own books. Most of the 3E "bloat" was happening in the 3pp market. Perhaps the release of the 3.5E core books in mid-2003 was WotC's way of slamming the brakes on the 3E "bloat" in the 3pp market, at the expense of angering D&D players and the subsequent fallout. WotC wanted to regain market control of the "bloat" on their own terms, and hence all those "Complete ...", "Races ...", etc ... splatbooks.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Hasbro/WotC executives and bean counters at the time (2001-2002), were paranoid of completely losing control of their own D&D product and markets. They had paid a lot for the acquisition of WotC, and didn't want their investment to fall into the toilet from a hippie-like "open gaming" concept.

 

[wedgeski]

This time around, WotC is producing most of the bloat itself without much 3pp participation. The 4E "everything is core" philosophy appears to be one of the main insidious culprits.

Have we ever actually examined what this means? For example, if you look at the D&D products page, you'll find everything except the PHB1, DMG1, and MM1, and a couple of miscellaneous bits listed as "Accessory".

What do Wizards mean with "Core".. or perhaps more to the point, what has the internet decided they mean since they said it?

 

[ggroy]

Have we ever actually examined what this means? For example, if you look at the D&D products page, you'll find everything except the PHB1, DMG1, and MM1, and a couple of miscellaneous bits listed as "Accessory".

What do Wizards mean with "Core".. or perhaps more to the point, what has the internet decided they mean since they said it?

Good question. This is probably one of those questions that WotC will not give a straight answer for.

By being deliberately vague about specifics, WotC probably wants everybody to believe that every 4E D&D book released is "core".

In practice, most 4E D&D players will probably minimally define "core" to be the PHB, DMG, and MM books released every year until 5E is released. This could be easily over 10 "core" books by the time 4E is over.

 

[Cadfan]

I'm pretty sure it just means that every book will assume that you have the others.

This has two effects: First, there will be more books which supplement material from other books. So Arcane Power, for example, supplements classes from several different places, assuming you have access to all of them. Second, there will be a presumption of compatibility, avoiding repetitive (but stacking) feats like in 3e.

 

[ggroy]

The real question is whether the new structure of the game and the new focus on long term, sustainable business (subscriptions, increasingly modular game, planned editions instead of waiting for crisis points like the 2e/3e changeover) will allow WotC to stretch out the non-bloat portion of a game's lifespan long enough to then switch to 5e without feeling rushed.

I wouldn't be surprised if there's already a secret WotC 5E committee which is already planning and working on a new edition.

Judging from early 4E D&D articles, it was mentioned that the planning and design committee of 4E was already in action by early 2005 (ie. literally over a year after 3.5E was released). Some of their early design efforts ended up in print by being shoehorned into 3.5E (ie. "The Book of 9 Swords" released in August 2006) or being made into another rpg (ie. "Star Wars RGP - Saga edition" released in June 2007).

I suppose one could look for possible hints of 5E in various future 4E splatbooks, DDI articles, or future WotC rpgs, which deviate significantly from the 4E paradigm. Something which has the feeling of being "shoehorned" into 4E, and/or outright breaks the system significantly.

 

[knifie_sp00nie]

Why all the focus on books? Books can be nice since they offer the material in another format, but look at things a different way via DDI.

I've paid $60 for a year subscription. That's about the cost of two books. Most of the books people are making the most noise about are crunch indexes (power books, adventurer's vault). I don't have to buy those because DDI includes all of it. I might buy a setting or fluff book if it interests me. I don't have to worry about missing out on any crunch because it'll be in the compendium later.

Really, I wish WotC would offer the fluff via DDI as well. I'd drop $100 a year or so for access to the full library of complete works. It goes away if I stop paying, but I also don't have a shelf full of books I'll probably never use again and I'm definitely ahead financially based on my 3.5 buying habits.

It's a big shift for some people. Ten years later I won't be able to skim a shelf for a nostalgia trip, but those moments haven't happened too much with my current RPG pile. I barely reference the 4e books these days.

So as long as the content is well-designed, bring it on. It's not bloat for a DDI subscriber. It's more value per dollar spent.

 

[ggroy]

Why all the focus on books? Books can be nice since they offer the material in another format, but look at things a different way via DDI.

Some people may be more interested in books?

Though I wouldn't surprised at all if 5E D&D becomes very DDI centric and exclusive, with a lot less emphasis on books. Digital subscriptions without the trouble of dealing with physical inventory, would be preferable for Hasbro.

 

[carmachu]

With the third party publisher bloat that gets talked about the problem was one of inventory and quality control for retailers,

How is it going to be any different for retailers now with even just pure WOTC items? After 2-3 years release, a retailer with have what:

3 sets of core players, DM and MM books.

plus what 27 more books of various types-adventure vault, draconmicon, etc..(9 per year)

plus 3 sets of campaign settings- world and player books and any otehr supporting items.

PLUS any sets of adventures they produce.

Thats just WOTC. Thats not even including say what Goodman puts out.

How is that not bloat?

 

[carmachu]

With the third party publisher bloat that gets talked about the problem was one of inventory and quality control for retailers,

How is it going to be any different for retailers now with even just pure WOTC items? After 2-3 years release, a retailer will have what:

3 sets of core players, DM and MM books.

plus what 27 more books of various types-adventure vault, draconmicon, etc..(9 per year)

plus 3 sets of campaign settings- world and player books and any otehr supporting items.

PLUS any sets of adventures they produce.

Thats just WOTC. Thats not even including say what Goodman puts out.

How is that not bloat?

 

[malraux]

I wouldn't be surprised if there's already a secret WotC 5E committee which is already planning and working on a new edition.

Here's a hint, their super-secret code name is Research and Development.

Of course WotC has plans for 5e. I bet those plans started around the time 4e's PHB got finalized, as someone though to himself "Man, I could improve how X functions." Someone else is testing a houserule that will show up in 5e right now! A class design that was considered for the PHB 3 will probably show up as the new warlord class in 5e (or some such class change). I really think this is stating the obvious.