WotC, Design and MMORPGs

[Odhanan]

I was with you until this last sentence. As a system D&D is more videogamey for the reasons you stated. The attraction of D&D is the wider experiences it can give (that MMORPGs cannot), but suggesting characters not use optimal tactics puts an unfair burden on the players IMO.

I understand what you mean, but I'm not so much suggesting suboptimal choices as I'm suggesting the role-playing of the players to override the tactics of the game when appropriate and relevant. What I'm suggesting in fact is that this "pseudo-videogamey" feel some keep talking about is something that depends a lot on the personal opinions of the players and how they actually play the game. In other words, if you start playing the game with the idea that anyway, you can't role-play correctly because the game is like a MMORPG, no wonder it will feel like a MMORPG.

Many keep talking about how a system allows for a certain type of play and not others. I'd say personally the system helps some aspects of the game or impedes them, depending on its focus, BUT what many seem to forget is that the actual role-playing is not a matter of rules. It is something that is aside of the rules and can override them at anytime if the GM and players allow themselves to do it. In all cases, the feel of the game will be influenced by the way players and GM approach this topic at the game table (even, as it often is, if it's left unsaid).

 

[BlueBlackRed]

One part of running a D&D game is understanding that sometimes things don't go as expected, but a lot more often it goes exactly as expected.
I've had games where a vampire that was 5CRs higher than the party who was taken down much quicker than expected. But I've seen a 4th level fighter get some lucky shots and take down a level 8 fighter.

I believe the DM should have been happy with how things went. I've seen more than one group where they thought teamwork was just something you saw on TV.

If it was supposed to be a BBEG fight, well then a fudged roll might have been called for (or something else that the party doesn't expect).

 

[Piratecat]

The way we did it was to have the wizard run into a room naked and screaming to begin an encounter. The best protected character would stand outside the room and swing his sword every round in case someone went over and stood there. The cleric would heal the monsters when we felt like maybe they were letting us off too easy, and when a PC was hurt the thief would stab them.

Hey, I've had D&D games like this, too!

 

[shilsen]

I'm not trying to pick on the DM here, I just think it's more a failure of the DM than the system.

Gold Roger's a nicer person than me. According to the information provided, the DM didn't know the rules for the PCs' abilities, ran the vrock remarkably unintelligently, whined about the players running their PCs unintelligently, and then had a knee-jerk reaction and banned a bunch of things. Yup - I'm picking on the DM.

 

[Imruphel]

Five rounds?

Sounds like a great combat. I would be delighted as the DM if that were the result and I expect my players would be too.

 

[MulhorandSage]

This sounds like the sort of combat tactics that we adppted long before MMORGs ever came into being.

I can understand disappointment if this was meant to be the climax of an adventure. In that case, he probably should have had some ringers or added complications in reserve, but you live and (hopefully) learn.

 

[satori01]

So I think we are all agreed here that the Knight was not the problem, there was a error in understanding new materiel on the groups part.

As a DM anytime I find a combat boring I know exactly who to blame....myself. Room....Item.....Monster + PCs of course that setup can yield "boring" results.

Would less orthodox solutions have pleased your DM? Say the Bard Faciniates the Vrock with Bardic Music. The Rogue sneaks in, posssibly with the aid of an Invisibility spell from the wizard, steals the book, sneaks out, Bard continues Bardic Music , possibly channeling the sound through a Ventriliquism spell into the room as the party seals the door with Arcane lock or with spikes.

Would your DM have found that exciting, or do you think he would find Bardic Music overpowered in that circumstance?

 

[IceFractal]

I think the real issue is that the party didn't previously have a tank - and now it does. So previously, I'm thinking that the DM was used to the party being in terror of most monsters because none of them could really survive a full-attack. Now suddenly they've got someone who can, and it lets the rest of the party actually use their abilities to the fullest instead of spending their time running away.

I hate to break it to the DM, but this is the normal way a party handles things, Knight or no Knight. The idea behind a well-functioning party is that whenever possible, the spellcasters should be able to stand in the back and fire in safety, the rogue should get a flanking position, and the cleric should be able to keep the tank in good health, if not tanking themselves.

Now it doesn't always go as planned, and smart monsters can break up that formation, but that's the basic idea, and simply having a monster hammer away in melee won't always work.

 

[Delta]

5 rounds. 1 dead vrock. One extremely PO'ed DM.

Okay, let's get past the issues that (1) by CR the vrock was outclassed, and (2) 5 rounds is a relatively long D&D fight.

Let's assume the original poster is irritated because it seemed like the vrock never had a chance, that he was locked into a clearly losing situation, and there never felt like there was a danger the vrock would win.

My analysis on that end is that fighting "one enemy" is always a losing proposition. If you've got a party of 4 or 5 ganging up on a single lone target, their combined actions and options hugely overwhelm anything a single NPC can do, almost all the time. (The only exception is if the target so powerful as to be totally invulnerable to their attacks.) Fighting one bad guy by himself always looks like a lopsided fight, in my experience -- you've got to have a squad of at least 3-5 enemies to tie up some of the PC actions.

 

[Remathilis]

Hey everyone.

answering and commenting on some things that have come up in the discussion.

1.) I wasn't said knight. I was said bard. I knew little of the knights mechanics during the time (my copy of PH2 was on loan to the knights player).

2.) It wasn't the length, it was the perception (the DMs) the DM was locked into a certain type of fight that 1 round into the combat (it really didn't help the knight was 2nd in the round, vrock was second to last) the vrock couldn't really do more than 1 mirror image and then try to full attack the knight (and use spores on the rogue). He felt his better tactics/targets were nullified. Because of this (and the rule-mess up) the fight didn't feel like a "challenge" merely a speed bump we overcame rather easily. I think he was upset there was really no potential for us to die in that fight and all we were doing was expending resource (which we would get back soon) were going to win unless we did something REALLY stupid.

3.) The DM has a dim view on MMORPGs and dislikes the "camping" mindset of buff, pull, kill, rest, repeat. When his game took on (to him) that same fomula; I think he freaked. In his opinion (and I spoke again on this not too long ago) "D&D doesn't need an agro system" and thus his banning of the knight and its ability to "control the battlefield" (read, strip him of options and turn the monster into a mindless full attack).

4.) The mystic had reach spell because she's supposed to be non-combat. She had low ranks in concentration (maybe none?) but could heal from a distance. He's actually went back and allowed it, but has made grumbles at it.

5.) He revoiced his concern about the orb spells when the wizard nearly took out a raksasha by his dangself. I think orb of force is on the chopping block next.

6.) The 5 rounds came from the knights full attack removing the mirror images and not having DR appropriate weapons. If the knight had the proper DR-beating weapon? 2-3 rounds.

I spoke with him again not too long ago. He's pretty adamant about banning the knight. However, knowing now it was a fluke fight (and we screwed it up royally) I feel better knowing it was NOT the class.

Still, DOES D&D need an "agro controller" in the mechanics?