WotC's hesitation on tackling the feat tax.

[GMforPowergamers]

For me, the biggest disappointment about the "feat taxes" is I'll sometimes be skimming through the feats and find a flavorful one that just makes me go "man, that would be sweet to have on this character" - then I realize I haven't taken Superior Will/X Expertise/Improved Defenses which are the real "Essentials" for characters I make.

My suggestion, and what I do...take the flavorful one...

 

[Iron Sky]

My suggestion, and what I do...take the flavorful one...

My OCD and Powergameratude, plus gaming with a group of powergamers makes that unlikely. I settle for picking those options in other RPGs where they are encouraged.

 

[Pentius]

My suggestion, and what I do...take the flavorful one...

I take the mechanical one, unless it's a bigger chunk of flavor than most feats offer(like a heritage feat, a dragonmark or a multiclass). Otherwise, I'm perfectly comfortable just roleplaying the flavor. If I already have nature trained, for example, and maybe even a background bonus there, I'll be damned if I'm going to take Skill Focus(Nature) just to make the point that my Ranger knows the woods. I can take it from here.

Well, I do most of my gaming Play By Post, so I can't just make notes on a printout, as my DM has his copy of my info as well.

I agree that it seems like WotC doesn't realize sometimes how many people chain themselves to the CB, but I play PbP, too, and I've never seen a game where everyone used the CB as their end-all reference as opposed to a Rogue's Gallery thread(which may or may not be called that) or game-wiki. Maybe suggest these things.

 

[klofft]

Can someone help me out with this? I'm new to 4th. Is the game so balanced that these collections of +1s are *ncessary* for the game to work well? I ran years of 3.5 with a group that couldn't give a fig about optimization, and we never had any problems. Is it really the case in 4 that if you don't spend your 1st 4 feats on dull bonuses to fix math, you're doomed to mediocrity?

 

[Pentius]

Can someone help me out with this? I'm new to 4th. Is the game so balanced that these collections of +1s are *ncessary* for the game to work well? I ran years of 3.5 with a group that couldn't give a fig about optimization, and we never had any problems. Is it really the case in 4 that if you don't spend your 1st 4 feats on dull bonuses to fix math, you're doomed to mediocrity?

Uh, balance kinda works the other way, by shortening the gap between optimized and unoptimized. Not taking these feats might make you mediocre, but 4e's mediocre is probably nothing to someone who didn't care about optimizing in 3.5. Think of it this way: If you didn't mind playing a Fighter alongside a buddy's Druid in 3.5, nothing short of dumping your primary stat and deciding on a punch-only strategy for a Wizard is going to even show up on your radar.

If you traditionally have not given even a single fig about optimization, I recommend keeping all of your figs. You do not need to give them away now.

 

[KarinsDad]

Can someone help me out with this? I'm new to 4th. Is the game so balanced that these collections of +1s are *ncessary* for the game to work well? I ran years of 3.5 with a group that couldn't give a fig about optimization, and we never had any problems. Is it really the case in 4 that if you don't spend your 1st 4 feats on dull bonuses to fix math, you're doomed to mediocrity?

Well, yes and no.

You won't start really noticing anything significant until about starting Paragon or level 11.

So if the PCs never get to level 11, then you'll probably never notice it.

But at level 11, the difference is +2 to hit. That starts becoming noticable and it becomes pretty large at level 21 and +3 to hit.

You'll also not notice it too much if you play a melee PC using a +3 proficiency weapon. Such PCs are relatively speaking, ~+1 to hit over implement users. They can also charge for +1 more and can sometimes get +2 for flank or prone easier than implement users. And some melee classes have some type of weapon training for +1, or can take a Paragon Path with another +1 bonus to hit.

So if you don't want to worry about Expertise at all, playing certain types of melee PCs with a +3 proficient weapon can get you all of the way to level 30 without having to worry about Expertise.

But Expertise is, in my opinion, eventually absolutely required for implement users. If you have most PCs taking Expertise and your implement user not doing so, then you can run into situations where the Fighter at level one is +9 with +3 prof, +1 weapon training, +1 Expertise, 18 Str and your Wizard is +4 with 18 Int. The Fighter is hitting AC 15 (even without charge or flank) on a 6 and the Wizard is hitting Will 13 on a 9. Players will pick up on that right away.


With regard to defenses, the main one where it matters is the PC's lowest NAD (non-AC defense, i.e. will, reflex, or fort). Most players bump up the same two ability scores throughout the lifetime of the PC. This means that the third one suffers.

Say you have a PC with a 11 starting Reflex which is about as low as it gets, but 10 is not impossible. If this defense is not boosted, then in 29 levels (i.e. level 30), the monsters are +29 to hit whereas the defense will only go up by +15 level, +6 magic neck item, +1 ability scores = +22. The monsters will be at +7 to hit compared to level one. What's worse is that the same level monsters at level one already hit on a 7 (+4 vs. 11), so now they hit on a 2.

And, the ability score requirements may limit the player anyway. Say the PC has a starting Reflex of 13. The player cannot take Superior Reflexes for the PC until level 21. That's 2/3rds of the entire potential lifetime of the PC with a really low defense. The player is almost required to take Improved Defenses by late heroic or early Paragon.

Most players, even those with semi-decent numbers in all 3 NADs should eventually take at least one and sometimes two or more defense feats (in the example above, Improved Defenses or Superior Reflexes plus Epic Reflexes).

If the PC in this example takes both Superior Reflexes and Epic Reflexes, the PC would have a Reflex Defense of +30. That's a solid get hit on an 8 at level 30 by same level foes, but it cost 2 feats. The PC might also pick up an item with a +1 Reflex bonus as well.

The non-lowest NADs don't have this issue and the player doesn't really have to worry too much about them. Yes, the 1st level monster hits Will defense 15 with an 11 and the 30th level monster hits Will defense on an 8, but this isn't game breaking. With the sheer number of defensive abilities and items that a player has at level 30, getting hit on an 8 isn't crushing and a single feat, Improved Defenses, will get it back up to 11.

But getting hit every time on a 2 is crushing.


My suggestion. Get your DM to give a feat bonus of +1 to hit and NAD defenses per tier and forget about most of the problem.

 

[klofft]

Thanks for the help. For the record, I am the DM. My players just don't pay that much attention to the math, and they certainly don't compare themselves to each other (at least in 3.5). By the time we stopped playing 3.5 (level 16), just about every big monster hit on a 2 or better anyway.

I appreciate the time to show me the math - and I do want to look at it even more closely - but I remain unconvinced that this is really going to be an issue for my players. Again, thanks for taking the time to explain it to me.

 

[Pentius]

If you're the DM, I'd suggest considering handing out free expertise feats. The Bonuses at set levels is good, too, but ime, players like free feats. Of course, if they don't look at the math, or compare themselves to each other, it probably won't be an issue, anyway.

 

[Mengu]

I appreciate the time to show me the math - and I do want to look at it even more closely - but I remain unconvinced that this is really going to be an issue for my players. Again, thanks for taking the time to explain it to me.

If *all* your players are of like mind, it probably isn't an issue. But a mix can make things awkward.

I have a hunter who typically just needs a 2-4 on the die to hit. In another group, I have a buddy playing a paladin who typically needs a 9-11 to hit. If these two characters were in the same game, and he routinely saw me hitting on a 2, he would inevitably begin to wonder what he's doing wrong.

Missing repeatedly in 4e is very frustrating, because you have all these cool powers, 90% of which do nothing on a miss. So, your paladin is thinking all right, almost everyone is bloodied, and you have this cool encounter power that's going to heal everybody that's bloodied, you pull it out, and... you miss. When that happens a half dozen times, you can't help but get frustrated.

So at that point, optimization via making sure you have expertise, making sure you have an 18 or 20 attack stat, making sure you're using a high proficiency weapon or an accurate implement, etc, become more about increasing your fun, than optimization. Just something to keep in mind.

 

[Gorgoroth]

optimized vs not

Wotc has their heads up you know where. When they said you should just house rule the free expertise taxes, but don't provide that option in the builder (which is ALREADY there!! in the OCB, just hidden with a silly checkbox), that is just...smash-my-keyboard infuriating.

Good thing I refuse to give them any more of my money. Don't piss on us then tell us to buy an umbrella if you don't want to get wet.

Oh, and the umbrella they sell is of the Acme / Wile-E-Coyote variety, with no actual surface to protect you.

Buggs bunny me once...shame on you, buggs bunny me for three years, shame on me. no more!!!

I quit my 4e game this week because it was just too frustrating. After all this time, I can't believe how much better other editions were.

4e is not balanced, I'm sorry. Our druid wasn't of the optimizing variety and he didn't kill ONE creature. He rarely even hit. This is from level 11 to 12. He had an 18 in his main stat but didn't think it was important to pick any of these feat taxes and took silly stuff like wolf form blah blah. He quit the game two weeks ago...

without taking these feats, if you are in a group with viable characters who took them, you will be extremely sub-par and it will be excrutiatingly awkward to both play or watch these characters being played.

If 4e combat wasn't the main focus of the game, I'd agree with Abdul, but look at your sheet. It's 6 bloody pages of COMBAT-ONLY powers!!! jeez, the system itself penalizes you for thinking about roleplaying. There's next to no space devoted to stuff useful outside of combat.