D&D 5E Would this fix Champion?

[DaedalusX51]

No worries!

I couldn't really comment on the OP for two reasons:

1. I think the Champion is fine for what it is; but more importantly,
2. I didn't understand from the OP why he wanted the change.

The (2) is the most important part when I am looking to give feedback. If he just wants the Champion to do more DPR, then it seems, well, okay-ish. I'd have to think through some of the edge cases (two handed weapons, dual wield) and, perhaps, interactions with feats and other "buffs."

But it has been my experience that most people who don't enjoy the Champion don't enjoy it for reasons other than just issues involving DPR, and as such I'm not sure that this, alone, would be appropriate fix.

Personally. I think this thread has really shown that there are a few issues that are being conflated as one.

• There are people that do not like the gameplay of the Battle Master due to verisimilitude issues and resource usage and wish that the Champion had more to do round per round in combat.

• There are people that have done or have looked at white room math and found that the Champion lags behind both the Battle Master and the Eldritch Knight in damage throughout an adventuring day of 6-8 encounters with 2 short rests, and they wish to bump up the Champion to be comparable.

• There are people that like the Champion as is and are defending it.

I personally fall into both the first and second group. I won't hazard to guess if the majority of the people that have complaints about the champion do as well, but they definitely fall into at least one of them.

I think Satyrn's suggestion to create an entirely new subclass without the verisimilitude issues of the Battle Master but with the round to round decision making would really help clear things up for the one group.

For the other group, we will have to see if they still feel the need to boost the Champion once they have the gameplay that they enjoy.

 

[Ashkelon]

How many people who want a mechanically and tactically interesting class actually play the champion?

In my experience, the champion only ever gets played by those who don't want to think about combat options more complicated than "I hit it with my weapon". Those people generally aren't too concerned about their relative effectiveness in combat.

Note: for those who want a more capable simple class, check out the UA samurai. Reflavor the class of its flavor doesn't jive with you. It is surprisingly simple but also quite effective.

 

[DaedalusX51]

I think the biggest issue is that the Fighter should of been split into 2 classes as the same chassis for a simple fighter and advanced one hold each other back. This would benefit the Champion in that you could do more focused subclasses that don't have to give up too much to cover everything, but instead focus in what the player aiming for a simple class wanted to play (eg defender, melee or archer.).

I think you hit the nail on the head. The only issue then would be which version is the real Fighter? People would get hung up that one side of the edition wars has won.

I personally would be happy with two classes as I've always hated the Fighter/Fighting Man name.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Eubani]

I think you hit the nail on the head. The only issue then would be which version is the real Fighter? People would get hung up that one side of the edition wars has won.

I personally would be happy with two classes as I've always hated the Fighter/Fighting Man name.

Does one need to be called the fighter? I base this off the Magic User class name which has seen how much change over 40 odd years? If it realy is required for those prone to wear there underwear too tight and get it uncomfortably twisted you could label it like this: For the basic class Fighter - Some simple fighty name and for the advanced class Fighter - Some cool kid name that spits in the face of the spell caster supremacy league, makes grognards cry and says fighters can have nice things.

eg.
(Basic class) Fighter - Warrior
(Advanced Class) Fighter - Captain

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Eubani]

Oh ... you don't have to go to all of that difficulty to make grognards cry.

It's real simple. Next time the grognard sidles up to you, and starts telling you about, "Blah blah blah we had to walk both ways, uphill, in a blizzard, just so that we could get our characters TPKd in Tomb of Horrors, and we LOVED IT blah blah blah never the same once Gygax was forced out blah blah blah young whippersnappers with your anime blah blah blah back then, we didn't have blogs, or forums, we wrote letters to Dragon magazine blah blah blah ..." here's what you do....

Just look them in the eye.
And say very slowly, "You will never recapture your youth."

Then slowly walk away.

And yes, you should feel bad. Because some day, you will be that grognard.

This is kind of like when I tell some people they needed a time machine not a new edition.

 

[Eubani]

Oh ... you don't have to go to all of that difficulty to make grognards cry.

It's real simple. Next time the grognard sidles up to you, and starts telling you about, "Blah blah blah we had to walk both ways, uphill, in a blizzard, just so that we could get our characters TPKd in Tomb of Horrors, and we LOVED IT blah blah blah never the same once Gygax was forced out blah blah blah young whippersnappers with your anime blah blah blah back then, we didn't have blogs, or forums, we wrote letters to Dragon magazine blah blah blah ..." here's what you do....

Just look them in the eye.
And say very slowly, "You will never recapture your youth."

Then slowly walk away.

And yes, you should feel bad. Because some day, you will be that grognard.

Just saying that Fighters should have nice things is often enough to make them cry.

 

[Eubani]

Lets face it Fighter design other than the edition we dare not speak of has been 40 odd years of nerd revenge fantasy.

 

[GameOgre]

How many people who want a mechanically and tactically interesting class actually play the champion?

In my experience, the champion only ever gets played by those who don't want to think about combat options more complicated than "I hit it with my weapon". Those people generally aren't too concerned about their relative effectiveness in combat.

Note: for those who want a more capable simple class, check out the UA samurai. Reflavor the class of its flavor doesn't jive with you. It is surprisingly simple but also quite effective.

I play a Champ and I care about my relative effectiveness in combat. Mostly because I walk around like a Bronze Golem with 100 pound balls just slamming them on the table to prove my manliness. I will not be out damaged and if someone tries I will end this DPT(Damage Per Turn) fight with a Teabagging.

I out damage everyone at all times. I try to rush in and kill every single monsters in the area effect of a fireball before it goes off and while I might not get the job done, most of the time its close N'Nuff.

If those perky wizards and Sorcs try to outdo me i make sure to let a few critters get through to beat the ever lovin snot out of those pansy punks.

If the Barb tries to outdo me I will kill the mob he spent all round running to kill so he loses his rage from not attacking.

The Paladin's are a harder contest but few play them and when they do I just make sure they end up morally conflicted! "Oh no it turns out all those guys were not evil but lawful good and under the control of that mind flayers..oh well right? what could we do....oh and those goblins were actually children with a illusion on them that made them seem like goblins, remember that one you chased down and it was making those funny Bree Yark sounds? turns out he was yelling please no Help mommy!