Would this solve the "grind" issue?

[Hussar]

Ok, I'm really new to 4e, believe it or not. I've played for a bit, but no DMing for me. And, like many here, I've heard a lot about the whole "grind" issue in the game. Not wanting to run into this, a thought occurred to me as I was brainstorming an adventure to write.

In the 4e DMG, under adventure design, it posits that the base unit to use is a soldier or a brute. By and large, the encounter templates were two or three soldier/brutes, with the remainder taken up by the other roles.

What if you shift that? Instead of the front line being soldier brutes, why not use skirmishers? So, the meat and potatoes of any encounter will be skirmishers, with the remainder being taken up by artillery, controllers and the odd brute.

And, as an additional thought, how much affect would it have to make up the xp budget with lower level monsters, but more of them? Instead of five baddies, drop a level or two on the baddies and use seven of them?

Again, avoiding using a majority of brutes/soldiers. But, with a two level drop, the brutes/soldiers go down pretty quickly. Or at least it looks that way on paper.

Would this work? Or would the monsters be totally ineffectual against the party? Does using a couple of levels down nerf the monsters to the point where they are too wimpy. I'm coming at this from 3e experience where dropping a couple of CR's turns a monster into tissue paper that hits like a wet noodle.

Would this work?

 

[Oompa]

Well.. if you think the combat is a grind.. why not make more skill challenges / social encounters that give xp and throw in the occasional combat encounter..

And don't forget that if you make a level 1 encounter for 5 pc's you can spent 500 xp.. just scroll the book and check what monster is under 500 and if a party can handle it..

This way you can throw 15 monsters at a party (all minions) or maybe 2 - 3 goblins..

 

[Hussar]

Oompa - please don't take my post as some sort of bow shot. It wasn't. I have heard about this problem, and I thought I'd nip it in the bud before it occurs. To be honest, I'm not sure if it IS a problem. I haven't DM'd, only played. So, I really don't know.

But, 15 minions and 2 or 3 baddies sounds a heck of a lot more fun than 5 bigger baddies. Then again, I'm a big Savage Worlds fan too.

As far as using more skill challenges, I was guestimating about a 1:2 or 1:3 ratio when buildling the adventure - that is one skill challenge/social encounter for every two or three combat encounters. 1:1 seems a bit too much, I likes me the hack. That would give me about 3 or 4 noncombat encounters per level, which seems about right to my taste.

 

[the Jester]

I think it varies according to your party's consistency. I'd try lots of different encounter models out, exploring mixes of standard, elite, solo and minion monsters of different roles. I think any one type of encounter will get old after a while; best to mix it up imho.

As far as grind goes, not all groups experience it. A lot of that comes down to the pcs' damage output- i.e. a party with tons of strikers = less grind but less durability.

 

[Oompa]

Oompa - please don't take my post as some sort of bow shot. It wasn't. I have heard about this problem, and I thought I'd nip it in the bud before it occurs. To be honest, I'm not sure if it IS a problem. I haven't DM'd, only played. So, I really don't know.

But, 15 minions and 2 or 3 baddies sounds a heck of a lot more fun than 5 bigger baddies. Then again, I'm a big Savage Worlds fan too.

As far as using more skill challenges, I was guestimating about a 1:2 or 1:3 ratio when buildling the adventure - that is one skill challenge/social encounter for every two or three combat encounters. 1:1 seems a bit too much, I likes me the hack. That would give me about 3 or 4 noncombat encounters per level, which seems about right to my taste.

I don't know what you mean, but i didnt mean anything bad or something, my excuse if my post sounded wrong..

And to clarifiy i didnt mean 15 minions and 2-3 goblins, i meant 15 minions or 2-3 goblins.. I meant that you can just juggle with the monsters till you find the right balance as long as you keep into your xp budget..

 

[Hussar]

We currently have a 4 PC party, although, that might become 4 PC's and one DMPC (rotating DM's), so I guess we'll have a standard party. Currently, we have one of each role, so, any new PC is just going to double up on one. No idea which one.

I'm mostly just spitballing here.

 

[Shin Okada]

Using more artilleries, lurkers, skirmishers, & brutes (yes brutes) helps to solve "grinding" issue. So as using not using choking terrains too much.

The key is to let monsters attack non-defender PCs. Even brutes can TAKE OAs from PCs and go adjacent to controllers, leaders & strikers. Brutes have tons of HPs. So go aggressive.

You can even do the same with soldiers. They have high enough AC and have good chance to avoid being hit by OAs.

 

[Chzbro]

I would be hesitant to assume that you'll run into "grind." I humbly propose that it's not as pervasive as these boards might suggest.

While I don't doubt that many have run into this problem, I firmly believe that it's more an issue of encounter design than anything inherent in the combat system. I think that you (Hussar) will find that your ideas about having more appropriately leveled opponents to your group (+/- 2 levels) makes for much more exciting--and dangerous--combats than fights with fewer higher leveled opponents.

Don't be afraid to throw brutes at your players, even brutes a level or two higher. They are easy to hit, but do enough damage to make things frightening when they land a shot. Personally, I try to keep the soldiers around the same level as the group due to their stout defenses. Minions are fun to use (I use 6 for the xp value of 4), but take a care not to bunch them together to start a fight...because they're a lot less fun when your controller wipes them all out in round 1.

But I don't want it to sound as if I'm trying to lecture on proper encounter design. Ultimately I support the advice from many of the other posters, and think that your own ideas show that you're already putting enough thought into encounter building to avoid grind. It's really about putting together a group of creatures that work well together and present tactical choices for your particular party. If there's anywhere that 4e combat doesn't work as well (in my personal opinion) it's when you just toss a few random creatures that fit an xp budget at your group with no real consideration as to how they interact.

 

[Mesh Hong]

Grind is in the mind.

Having said that all encounters and creatures are not equal, in general I consider skirmishers and brutes to be the best baseline for creatures, with controllers, artillery, lurkers and soldiers being less common.

One advantage of soldiers is that you can use them at level -2 and still have them as an average threat (defences wise), this can be good if you are trying to keep to an XP budget.

One advantage of brutes is that you can use them at level +2/+3 and still have them as an average threat (defences and attack value wise), this can be good for balancing elites, solos or impressive looking threats without needlessly penalising your party.

Insubstantial creatures and swarms can be problematic if used inappropriately. With insubstantial creatures having the problem of lowering the players morale by only taking half damage, no matter what their PC does. Insubstantial creatures that weaken should be avoided at all costs (I'm looking at you Wraith) as they are not fun for the DM or player.

Anyway you might already know this basic stuff. But I would suggest just running the game to start with and seeing how it goes. If combat seems to take too long try and address the particular problem then.

 

[Jhaelen]

I have heard about this problem, and I thought I'd nip it in the bud before it occurs. To be honest, I'm not sure if it IS a problem. I haven't DM'd, only played. So, I really don't know.

I'd give it a try as written, first. I don't believe it becomes an issue if you use the revised solo rules and if you refrain from using soldiers of a much higher level than the pcs.