Would you allow this paladin in your game? (new fiction added 11/11/08)

[Darkness]

Imagine if you were a deity. And you wanted to choose a champion for your cause. All your subjects are flawed. But as you're looking down from the sky or whatever, you come across Cedric. He's brave, he's touch, he fights to his death for the good cause. But... he also frequents the brothel on a whim and he likes to rough people up a bit sometimes when he's angry. And he shows no signs of changing his ways. Would you keep giving this guy your powers?

This question is a little complex. Some things to keep in mind when trying to answer it:

First of all, requiring a paladin to have a patron deity is a house rule. The RAW in the PHB do not require it. (PHB, p.43)
FR (and GH too IIRC) does require it, though, so it's not an uncommon rule.

Second... Even if a paladin has a patron deity, this deity does not necessarily have to be LG too. A common rule (e.g., in FR) is a maximum of 1 step removed. Somehow, I don't think we'd be having this discussion if we all were thinking of Cedric following a NG deity.
Examples of non-LG FR deities who have paladins: Azuth (LN), Chauntea (NG), Helm (LN), Kelemvor (LN), Lathander (NG), Sune (CG, an exception). Less prominent deities can have paladins too of course (e.g., Red Knight might have some).

Third... Wenching does not, in itself, violate the paladin code of conduct. (Unless you house-rule it, of course.)
Situations in which the articles of the code could be violated:

• "Respect legitimate authority." (If prostitution is illegal, which is unlikely but whatever, or a wartime commander forbids it, etc.)
• "Act with honor." (If the paladin is in a kind of marriage that forbids this.)
• "Help those in need." (If the prostitutes are virtual slaves or similar.)
• "Punish those who harm or threaten innocents." (Ditto.)

Drinking doesn't violate it either but you should be careful.

Fourth, a character's alignment depends on all of their (somewhat recent) actions, not just a few select ones. As long as the paladin stays LG, he's fine. (Assuming he doesn't violate the CoC, obviously. See above.)

Right, so much for the rules part.


So... What kind of deity am I? A deity of justice? Of good itself? The sun? Strategy? Retribution? Family? Hugs and puppies?
Paladin deities vary quite a bit in their outlook so it kinda depends...

 

[Storyteller01]

Nothing wrong with what I've read. I don't see a problem, so long as his church doesn't actively hunt down those vices he partakes (even a reverand has been known to knock back a few, even if the bible says not to.).

He would also need to represent the spirit if not the letter of the law. If said brothels are legal, or the laws on them are lax, then I don't see a problem. Drinking in moderation is okay, but drug use would not be, given the risk of addiction (unless your culture uses said drugs in their ceremonies. Even then, ONLY use them while in at given times or prayers).

Not all paladins have to be the rightous, spit polish the armor types. If you were a paladin for, say, Ilmater of FR, would you be walking around in armor proclaiming your god, or helping the weak and dying for the hopeless cause?

Question for everyone: Can anyone give an example of an interesting hero (real or storywise) who didn't have a qwerk? Operative word here is interesting, and they don't have to be lawful.


Logan had his rage, Sherlocke Holmes had a cocaine addiction, most of the folks who wrote the constitution were slave holders, etc.

Closest thing I know of is a sailor in one of Nathaniel Hathorne's stories. He was so good they killed him. Matter of fact, most of Nate's stories were about showing how no one is without flaws.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

If you accept a somewhat wider interpretation of the paladin archtype, I would suggest Roland of Gilead (the Dark Tower series) is a paladin. He's a servant of The Light and of Order, a man of honor and tradition, and the last hope for his world. And he sleeps with prostitutes, lies to people (when necessary to deceive a spy), drinks, and understands that his cause is nearly hopeless. Sexual mores are simply not an issue for him. In Roland's society, going to a prostitute or having relatively meaningless relations with a tavern wench are not dishonorable actions.

If you feel that a more expansive definition cheapens the concept, then neither Roland nor Cedric will be a paladin to you.

 

[Storyteller01]

On the flipside of the Japanese culture arguement:

While Geisha'a were allowed to practice, general prostitution was frowned upon. Kabuki thearter was banned for a time because it promoted such behavior (prostitutes tended to hangaround, and...well... actors rarley get rich in their trade )

 

[enrious]

Logan had his rage, Sherlocke Holmes had a cocaine addiction, most of the folks who wrote the constitution were slave holders, etc.

They ain't paladins, tho.

 

[FireLance]

Mature themes and discussions on the morality and legality of prostitution aside, I think the key issue raised is: what is the essence of being a paladin, and what are simply trappings?

The following is just my initial gut feel of what a paladin should essentially be (list is subject to refinement):
1. A paladin devotes his life to the fight against evil.
2. A paladin is willing to sacrifice himself to defend others.
3. A paladin does no harm to innocents.
4. A paladin inspires others to acts of good.

In my view, paladins can have vices, as long as they do not impair his ability to fight evil and do not harm innocents (directly - let's leave convoluted chains of cause and effect out of this, please). Perhaps the sample paladin could be more of an inspiring example, but maybe he does inspire others, in his way. I'd be interested to see how such a character would develop.

 

[bodhi]

But absolutely no one has commented once on the idea of whether a deity would ever support someone like Cedric. Or if said deity did, whether that made sense.

This kinda came up in the thread Mallus started. IMHO, one take on the character concept is that this is a character chosen by a deity. Mallus was interested in exploring the idea of paladinhood being bestowed by grace, rather than by "deserving" it. Maybe Cedric has no idea why he's chosen. Maybe he he just wanted to be a potato farmer like his father, and his father's father. Maybe he's just a wee bit resentful, and that's why he drinks.

As for why he was chosen, I think that's for the DM to decide, whether in collaboration or in secret. Maybe Cedric has blood ties to Someone Important. Maybe Cedric is the seventh son of a seventh son. Maybe he was born when the stars were aligned. Maybe the deity knows something that mere mortals do not.

On the other hand, maybe Cedric's deity is a lawful good type who also happens to be a carouser who enjoys a good brawl. Granted, Kord, Hercules and Thor are all CG, but it could happen.

 

[Virel]

For the current campaign I DM, I would not allow that Paladin. My group has eight players, 1/2 are male and 1/2 are female. Two are 13 year old males and another is an 11 year old female. Game content is limited to PG at most. Likewise, while a good concept, it is not in keeping with what is defined as LG Paladin arch-type IMC. The cynical view of his all his action as pointless, shows a lack of faith IMO and would make the character unacceptable as paladin IMC. In a group of adults the other stuff we could work out etc and have an interesting character.

 

[Storyteller01]

They ain't paladins, tho.

Agreed, but when has any hero lived a perfect life. How can anyone live that way? Even Superman (the Uberpaladin of all paladins, regardless of whether he's chosen by a god or not) has had to lie, cheat, and steal on occasion. And he can't be killed (DC has tried three times already!!)!

 

[Ogre Mage]

I would allow it, but whether he would retain his paladin powers for long is questionable. If the paladin draws his powers from a god, that makes it easier. The paladin's code may be universal, but religions interpret it differently. In the FR, for instance, a paladin of Sune could engage in such activities, so long as the paladin treated the prostitutes with kindness and respect. But a paladin of Tyr or Torm would be in trouble. With their tight views of morality, such behavior would be considered an affront. Perhaps one or two failings would be overlooked if the paladin atoned ... but continuous failings would result in the loss of powers and excommunication if discovered by the church. I have a hard time believing a paladin who devoutly followed such gods would not feel guilt over his acts.

If the paladin is godless, that is a hard question. This is why I prefer paladins, druids and esp. clerics to worship gods. In this particular example, the paladin in question, with a total lack of concern for propriety and pessimistic attitude (not very becoming for a paladin) is on a slippery slope. Such defeatism is the stuff of which blackguards are made.