Would you get behind Race levels?

[steeldragons]

Ya know...I think I could get behind this.

It would depend, of course, on how it was implemented...and fluffed.

"So, you just turned 3rd level -across the board, Class, Theme and Race- and you wake up the next day with a pair of wings on your back." or "suddenly you can see in the dark when you never could before" or "poof away to fairy land at will"...

Uhhhh, no. That's not gonna work for me.

But given/established bonuses or abilities that scale/increase in power or effectiveness as you go up, then fine. And then, flavorful choices/options (that make sense) to choose (assuming there will be something for you choose).

But yeah, I could see this working.
--SD

 

[Yora]

I think leveling races is a really terrible idea that was completely stupid the first time nonhuman races were made classes.

 

[Falling Icicle]

Like, dislike, indifferent?

Dislike. Your choice of race should be meaningful, but it shouldn't be such a big part of your character that you're hosed if you didn't pick the "correct" race for your class/theme. Players should feel free to play whatever race they want to play, not the one that is the most optimal. The only way to encourage that is to reduce the mechanical impact that your race has on your character (which is why I support the idea of getting rid of racial ability score adjustments). What you're suggesting is just the opposite.

 

[Number48]

Dislike. Your choice of race should be meaningful, but it shouldn't be such a big part of your character that you're hosed if you didn't pick the "correct" race for your class/theme. Players should feel free to play whatever race they want to play, not the one that is the most optimal. The only way to encourage that is to reduce the mechanical impact that your race has on your character (which is why I support the idea of getting rid of racial ability score adjustments). What you're suggesting is just the opposite.

Huh? I am TOTALLY about keeping the options from interfering with each other. How does gaining more racial abilities over time change your option of character? I certainly wouldn't suggest that every level in Dwarf give you a bonus, but only if you're a fighter. The abilities or skill bonuses you get would have to be racial themed and not step on the toes of class or theme, or at least not too much.

 

[Aeolius]

Works for me. As unbalanced as Savage Species was, the idea of "monster levels" made perfect sense. As a bonus, it would make non-standard races easier to use as characters, so I'm all for it.

 

[Mokona]

Monte: "We have themes for that. Kind of like kits in 2E. They reflect your background and life before adventuring.

I'm not sure what game Monte played but 2e kits had little to do with your background and a lot to do with transforming the rather narrow class options into a much broader class system.

The Loremaster kit took the Bard class and effectively created a neighboring Loremaster class which share a lot of class features with the Bard class.

The Pathfinder kit took the Ranger class and created more of an Archer class which we later saw in 4th edition as the archer build for Rangers.

Those and most kits changed the rules of your class enough that you were really playing a new class. Kits were a form of class proliferation that had nothing to do with character story/background.

The more I explore the ideas of class proliferation the more appealing they sound.

 

[Yora]

Kits were like alternative class features in 3rd Edition or Archetypes in Pathfinder. Not a fan of it, but as optional rules, why not.

But yes, it doesn't have anything to do with race.

 

[Li Shenron]

I'm not sure what game Monte played but 2e kits had little to do with your background and a lot to do with transforming the rather narrow class options into a much broader class system.

...

Those and most kits changed the rules of your class enough that you were really playing a new class. Kits were a form of class proliferation that had nothing to do with character story/background.

Maybe the will, now.

Someone else in the seminar mentioned that "deva" could be a Theme instead of a race, this suggests me that there can be "racial themes", so "background" may also include race or anything else that the PC is when not adventuring or was before adventuring.

Probably Monte's mention of "kits" refers only to the mechanics, not to what they represent.

 

[GM Dave]

The idea that Elf or Dwarf will be a seperate class and races will have levels seems pretty dead after today's, Jan 31st, Legends and Lore article.

Monte "But what does it mean to play in the "style" of various editions? That's a complex issue. It has involved, for me and my fellow designers, looking at the different editions and trying to distill down the essence of each one. For example, is it important that "elf" remains a class to someone who enjoyed Original D&D (1974) or Basic D&D? I'd argue, no. What's far more important for that player is an open-ended system with a lot of emphasis on the Dungeon Master, lots of exploration, and simple mechanics that enable fast combat, to name just a few things."

[I added the highlight]

My guess is that there may remain feat and skill choices that someone can use to express a particular theme of elf will be able to choose. This could be important considering the aim of 5e to include all the classes in the first player books of each edition that they may attempt to do the same with races (Go Gnomes!).

There are several types of elves, dwarves, and halflings in the player books and it is unlikely that the designers want to do up individual listings for each one of them. They will likely have feat choices for players to bring out their 'interpretation' or 'preference' for Gray Elves, High Elves, Wood Elves or other things as a mixture of theme, race, and some modular choices.

I also see that there will be negatives to races but this will be down played in 5e by the comment on Half-Orc Bards where the Bard class gives an attribute bonus that mixes with the possibly negative Charisma to return the player to an even situation (not as good as Fighter Orc mix where they might each add to strength).

 

[fuindordm]

I'd be totally on board with 3-5 racial levels per race, for characters who want to develop in that direction.

See Monte's Arcana Unearthed for how it might work. For most of the races in that game, the extra levels were pretty tempting! IIRC, not long after AU came out WotC produced a supplement (maybe it was Unearthed Arcana, come to think of it) with racial levels for the standard PH races, but theirs weren't as interesting.

Ben