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D&D 5E Xanathar's and Counterspell
- Thread starter Warmaster Horus
- Start date
Fanaelialae
Legend
Sorry, but that's a bad comparison. Identifying a weapon would be akin to identifying what kind of spell focus a caster is using.
Spells, however, are complex and varied. It can't be assumed that a light cantrip cast by a cleric and one cast by a wizard look or sound the same as they are being cast, despite that they produce the same effect. Beyond that, there are a great many spells out there, the majority of which any single caster will never prepare/know or cast. As such, it makes sense to me that identifying a spell would require a moment of focused attention.
That said, if you feel differently, that's fine. The designers have already said that the DM's section is there to make life easier, and that a DM should only use what they want to from that section (no idea how that will interact with AL).
Warmaster Horus
Explorer
A bit?
Warmaster Horus
Explorer
A good point. The trouble is that now that it is a 'suggestion', much like 'no magic shops', everyone will take it as official anyway, which will lead to all kinds of snarly talk at the table when counterspell comes up.
Fanaelialae
Legend
I suppose some people might feel that a sniper having a spotter is a bit clunky too. Doesn't mean it's not a thing. A person can only do so many things in the space of a second or two.
I think the real issue is that there is a plethora of issues.
Identifying the spell requiring a reaction basically negates the use of shield/counterspell without a team (even then plenty of dms allow you to call out as a free action ON YOUR TURN, not at any given moment) AND the fact the DC for identifying a spell is somewhat high. In fact the only people who are sure to identify spells are rogues with expertise in arcana and reliable talent.
A level 16 wizard with +5 intelligence and arcana trained only has a 75% chance to identify a level 1 spell. At level 16, a wizard has probably seen almost every single level 1 spell cast a dozen times. Hell, he probably cast every one a dozen times.
I don't know why they would put this in the book as their rule, as opposed to give a list of options they think work in various campaigns. Because with this being the only option its implied that its the rule, and is a
one, because it doesn't work with existing rules. Such as the shield spell.
Would it have been so hard to just list options:
Variant 1, easy identification: All spells are identifiable by those trained in arcana or spellcasters.
Variant 2 medium: All spells on your classes spell list are identifiable, you can make a free arcana check to identify other spells.
Variant 3 More complicated: Trained with arcana can identify the level of spell being cast automatically, can use reaction and check to id specific spell.
Variant 4 obtrusively difficult: You must spend a reaction and make an arcana check to identify a cantrip you have seen cast over 700 times.
Identifying the spell requiring a reaction basically negates the use of shield/counterspell without a team (even then plenty of dms allow you to call out as a free action ON YOUR TURN, not at any given moment) AND the fact the DC for identifying a spell is somewhat high. In fact the only people who are sure to identify spells are rogues with expertise in arcana and reliable talent.
A level 16 wizard with +5 intelligence and arcana trained only has a 75% chance to identify a level 1 spell. At level 16, a wizard has probably seen almost every single level 1 spell cast a dozen times. Hell, he probably cast every one a dozen times.
I don't know why they would put this in the book as their rule, as opposed to give a list of options they think work in various campaigns. Because with this being the only option its implied that its the rule, and is a
one, because it doesn't work with existing rules. Such as the shield spell.Would it have been so hard to just list options:
Variant 1, easy identification: All spells are identifiable by those trained in arcana or spellcasters.
Variant 2 medium: All spells on your classes spell list are identifiable, you can make a free arcana check to identify other spells.
Variant 3 More complicated: Trained with arcana can identify the level of spell being cast automatically, can use reaction and check to id specific spell.
Variant 4 obtrusively difficult: You must spend a reaction and make an arcana check to identify a cantrip you have seen cast over 700 times.
Warmaster Horus
Explorer
This is a fair request. It's sort of long and I didn't want to reproduce the entire thing from the book. I did forget to say that someone with the spell on their class list would make the Arcana check (DC 15+spell level) at Advantage.
Warmaster Horus
Explorer
Sure it can be a thing IRL. But having one person burning a reaction to make a difficult Arcana check (DC 15+spell level) and shout out info to another who then might cast Counterspell seems inorganic to the game. Why can't a trained caster with sufficient Arcana (the study of spells and spell casting) make this observation and react to it? People make Passive Perception checks to detect invisible foes to a given 5' square all the time (don't get me started on that...) in this game, after all.
IT still is clunky, i would go with the free arcana check not using up your reaction. I think you cannot use your reaction for this sort of stuff anyway.
Reactions are time segments listed for very specific actions like casting shield or opportunity attack or counterspell.
I mean if you rule this otherwise and say it is Party caster vs mob caster:
Mob: i cast
Partycaster: I counterspell
Mob: ahm PC did cast something, was that a counterspell? <---------- SEE this is why it is absolute crap.
You cannot even say your spell has been counterspelled w/o arcana check if you use this absurd rule!
One good thing about it interpreted like i just did it would prevent counterspell battles.
Another: Some spells which are not initially harmful, like a charm state that the victim is aware of the spell and what it does, so how are these resolved now if the victim wants to react with a counterspell?
Reactions are time segments listed for very specific actions like casting shield or opportunity attack or counterspell.
I mean if you rule this otherwise and say it is Party caster vs mob caster:
Mob: i cast
Partycaster: I counterspell
Mob: ahm PC did cast something, was that a counterspell? <---------- SEE this is why it is absolute crap.
You cannot even say your spell has been counterspelled w/o arcana check if you use this absurd rule!
One good thing about it interpreted like i just did it would prevent counterspell battles.
Another: Some spells which are not initially harmful, like a charm state that the victim is aware of the spell and what it does, so how are these resolved now if the victim wants to react with a counterspell?
