D&D 5E Xanathar's Healing Spirit is 10d6 healing to the whole party out of combat?

[5ekyu]

I'm not saying the spell isn't effective. I am asking if you have ever seen it actually used, and if so do you feel it was unbalanced when actually seen in play. Theory and actual play are very different.

What happens in theory and what hapoens in actual play are not necessarily different. It depends on how close the assumptions in the case of theory maych up with the conditions in game.

For example someone wants a cantrip that does more damage than a fireball to a larger area with selective targeting...i do not need to "see it in game" to see its far enough out of whack to be a problem.

Gave you seen Healing Spirit used in a game where it did not outshine the others and did not prove a problem? If so, what were the specifics?

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[5ekyu]

I understand. All I'm saying is consider what a healing spell should look like that is comparable in impact to fireball and hypnotic pattern and conjure animals.

I think healing spirit gets close to what that should look like. What do you think such a healing spell should look like?

I think it would be a much higher level than those offensive spells. When i look at cure spells vs damage spells of a similar mechanic and level i see a big difference in damage vs heal scaling.

Its almost as if they deliberately made it so that the gradual result of exchanging damage magic and healing magic would be loss of hit points - so that things like HD burn etc was a useful thing, etc.

So a spell that would "match up" with a fireball 3rd level slot would NOT be one that cured baseline 10d6 per character vs the fireballs 8d6/4d6 per character AND be a level lower as far as slot needed (use a 3rd level slot for spirit and its 20d6 per character vs 8d4/4d6 for fireball.)

Ever compare CLW and its opposite number for output in play? Does CLW counteract per cast 2-3 casts of its opposite?

Please don't relativize. Please don't bring up analogies that are incomparable.

Your post is only muddying the waters.



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[FrogReaver]

Before what I'm saying gets any further misconstrued let me say that I never once suggested comparing the amount of damage fireball deals to the amount of healing that healing spirit outputs. What I did suggest was comparing their IMPACT on the game which is not anything slightly resembling a comparison for amount of damage and healing anything does.

I think it would be a much higher level than those offensive spells. When i look at cure spells vs damage spells of a similar mechanic and level i see a big difference in damage vs heal scaling.

Its almost as if they deliberately made it so that the gradual result of exchanging damage magic and healing magic would be loss of hit points - so that things like HD burn etc was a useful thing, etc.

So a spell that would "match up" with a fireball 3rd level slot would NOT be one that cured baseline 10d6 per character vs the fireballs 8d6/4d6 per character AND be a level lower as far as slot needed (use a 3rd level slot for spirit and its 20d6 per character vs 8d4/4d6 for fireball.)

Ever compare CLW and its opposite number for output in play? Does CLW counteract per cast 2-3 casts of its opposite?







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[5ekyu]

Before what I'm saying gets any further misconstrued let me say that I never once suggested comparing the amount of damage fireball deals to the amount of healing that healing spirit outputs. What I did suggest was comparing their IMPACT on the game which is not anything slightly resembling a comparison for amount of damage and healing anything does.

Well, first thew fact that you keep referencing 3rd level tier-2 spells to compare the impact on the game of a second level tier-1 spell to is telling.

Second, the notion of moving to more and more obscure references for comparison is also suggestive of a thing or two.

Third, this spell and its impact on my games (as described the basic ending of the between encounter HP drop mechanic) would be far more disruptive to play than the addition of tier-2 abilities was. The tier-2 abilites you chose to list (which maybe we are not now supposed to be using - i am not sure) took a few types of adversaries and hit them hard (at the same time that different tiers of opposition arise with different threats) but this spell at a tier lower hits a basic structural aspect of the campaign and smashes thru it. This spell says as far as HP goes multi-encounter encounter HP drain is almost completely gone by 3rd level **if** you choose this one class (yeah rangers get it later but...). That is too significant an advantage for one class. Its not at all like the tier-bumps that they made sure to give to every class when tiers jump.

Fourth and finally, turn the same question back around and please show that this spell's impact at its level is balanced? once we see a clear example of your ever more nebulous comparison rules in action, maybe we can better address the other side of the coin in a way that suits your finely tuned sense of comparative balance.

 

[Bardbarian]

What happens in theory and what hapoens in actual play are not necessarily different. It depends on how close the assumptions in the case of theory maych up with the conditions in game.

For example someone wants a cantrip that does more damage than a fireball to a larger area with selective targeting...i do not need to "see it in game" to see its far enough out of whack to be a problem.

Gave you seen Healing Spirit used in a game where it did not outshine the others and did not prove a problem? If so, what were the specifics?

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No, I have not seen it in play. I have played several games with players who had access to it and no one has chosen to cast it. Thats is why I am asking for examples of it in play. I would really like to know if it had a positive or negative effect on play. In my own games it has been a non issue so far but that doesn't mean someone else might not have had a different experience. I even carry the spell on my druid but I haven't really been in a situation where it changed anything substantially. Have you?

On a side note, check out the Sun Soul monk or Hunter ranger for a fireball that can be cast at will Using either at will or short rest resources both these classes can deal damage every round similar to a fireball but they are generally seen as underwhelming performers. A single ability out of context does not stand alone in game balance.

 

[5ekyu]

No, I have not seen it in play. I have played several games with players who had access to it and no one has chosen to cast it. Thats is why I am asking for examples of it in play. I would really like to know if it had a positive or negative effect on play. In my own games it has been a non issue so far but that doesn't mean someone else might not have had a different experience. I even carry the spell on my druid but I haven't really been in a situation where it changed anything substantially. Have you?

On a side note, check out the Sun Soul monk or Hunter ranger for a fireball that can be cast at will Using either at will or short rest resources both these classes can deal damage every round similar to a fireball but they are generally seen as underwhelming performers. A single ability out of context does not stand alone in game balance.

For te packages comparisons - those are "packages" where gaining access to one thing comes married to a number of things and the overall package is where balance is measured.

That is different from say a single spell, unless the point you are trying to make is that this spell is an overpowered add on added because the druid class is underpowered?

Secondly, what can you tell us about your games where healing spirits was not even used? Was there much in the way of other spells or effects used for in-between healing or are you running a game where the encounter structure in those cases or commonly makes that aspect mostly not needed?

 

[Bardbarian]

A spell is as you say, part of a package, the spell lists it appears it is tied to the balance of any given spell. This is one reason Bards are so strong in this edition.

I am not arguing for or against the power of this spell I am however noticing I have seen a lot of panic over the spell and not one actual instance of play. Now ranger and druid are two of the least popular classes based on some of the polls cited in this forum from time to time so there may not be many ppeople using it in the first place.

I am skeptical of some of the assumptions I see people make about that spell and other areas of game balance. Usually they are connected to one aspect of play but do not factor other aspects. The spell seems strong out of combat when time is not an issue and players can dance around for a minute without any repercussions. I have to wonder however is it actually being used that way?
Are those situations common or an outlier?
Is the use of concentration relevant preventing other long duration spells from carrying over from one combat to the next?
Is it considered strong because what the spell actually does or because it is seen as better than Prayer of Healing?
Is Prayer of Healing the problem in that it may be too weak? I haven't seen that spell cast in 2 years for example.
Why can't anyone describe an incident of actual gameplay? Is it because no one is using the spell as is in my group, or was it banned without ever trying the spell in actualy play?

There are so many questions that can be better answered through actually play experience, so many things in this game function differently in play than in theorycraft. Some work better, others do not live up to expectations.

 

[Iry]

Why can't anyone describe an incident of actual gameplay? Is it because no one is using the spell as is in my group, or was it banned without ever trying the spell in actualy play?

I have seen the spell recently used in actual play. It certainly did a good job of out of combat healing, but the DM will probably just raise the challenge of combats (that's just what he does) to match the increased amount of healing. The dancing also caused some laughter around the table.

So, mostly it had no impact except to create a small arms race that will stabilize itself. The most negative consequence is that the players stopped preparing other heals (except an emergency in battle heal). Even the cleric stopped preparing Prayer of Healing and used the slot for something different.

But it has not created a situation where the players ONLY cast this. I actually asked the druid why that was, and he said "It's cool after a hard fight, but saving everything for healing is really boring."

So, pretty much what you would expect? Except for the whole 'not using other healing spells, because this one is so good' issue.

 

[Bardbarian]

Interesting, thanks for the example!

 

[5ekyu]

A spell is as you say, part of a package, the spell lists it appears it is tied to the balance of any given spell. This is one reason Bards are so strong in this edition.

I am not arguing for or against the power of this spell I am however noticing I have seen a lot of panic over the spell and not one actual instance of play. Now ranger and druid are two of the least popular classes based on some of the polls cited in this forum from time to time so there may not be many ppeople using it in the first place.

I am skeptical of some of the assumptions I see people make about that spell and other areas of game balance. Usually they are connected to one aspect of play but do not factor other aspects. The spell seems strong out of combat when time is not an issue and players can dance around for a minute without any repercussions. I have to wonder however is it actually being used that way?
Are those situations common or an outlier?
Is the use of concentration relevant preventing other long duration spells from carrying over from one combat to the next?
Is it considered strong because what the spell actually does or because it is seen as better than Prayer of Healing?
Is Prayer of Healing the problem in that it may be too weak? I haven't seen that spell cast in 2 years for example.
Why can't anyone describe an incident of actual gameplay? Is it because no one is using the spell as is in my group, or was it banned without ever trying the spell in actualy play?

There are so many questions that can be better answered through actually play experience, so many things in this game function differently in play than in theorycraft. Some work better, others do not live up to expectations.

Is it being used out of combat? As opposed to in combat when movemen round by round would be tactically dubious? Thats really worrying you? How much in combat use it gets? Answer is likely as much or more than healing prayer.

Are out of combat healing after encounters an outlier? Well, likely they are for games with a higher than normal long rest to combat encounter ratio, as i have been referencing. But for many others and most any game running anything close to the encounter standard the spells are balanced around, no after encounter need for healing is not an outlier case.

Again i ask you, in games you have seen where it was not used, what were those situations as they applied? What were the other between encounter healings that were used instead?

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