You primary stat should never be lower than 18

[Nifft]

On the other hand, you could try role-playing and build the character that best fits your concept - instead of trying to squeeze every point of combat advantage out of the character.

Why do you think concept is in conflict with combat prowess?

Unless your concept is a guy who sucks at combat, of course. And 4e really doesn't cater to that at all. You could probably make that concept useful in 3e, but 4e is different in that regard.

Cheers, -- N

 

[JohnSnow]

Why do you think concept is in conflict with combat prowess?

Unless your concept is a guy who sucks at combat, of course. And 4e really doesn't cater to that at all. You could probably make that concept useful in 3e, but 4e is different in that regard.

Cheers, -- N

And now, after 5 pages of arguing that we were talking about "being suboptimal" rather than "sucking," we're back to the beginning.

"Suboptimal" /= "sucking."

"Sub-optimal" = "Not as good as a properly min-maxed character." See the Character Optimization boards for further clarification.

So, we come back to it. Are we talking "sub-optimal" as in "not fully min-maxed?" Or are we inferring "sub-optimal" to mean "doesn't suck."

The thing is, with the first, the answer is "duh." However, if you have a group of 5 players, and only one guy is a min-maxer, the other four characters will be roughly comparable. The min-maxer gets to enjoy the benefits he gets from his careful study of every option for every boost he can get. The guy who isn't min-maxed does not "suck." His "to-hit bonus" is 1 or 2 points behind. That's it. But in exchange, he's stronger in some other areas than his min-maxed counterpart is.

So how "essential" this is really depends on your group. Is everyone else a min-maxer? If so, then you probably need to do it too, or you'll feel like you're "behind the curve" when it comes to combat.

If everyone doesn't do it, then nobody has to. In other words, if you're the only guy in your group without an 18-20 in your primary attack stat, then, and only then, is when you need to worry.

 

[Nifft]

See the Character Optimization boards for further clarification.

Come read my threads over there for some examples.

So, we come back to it. Are we talking "sub-optimal" as in "not fully min-maxed?" Or are we inferring "sub-optimal" to mean "doesn't suck."

Well, I'm asking him what the conflict is between "combat advantage" and "character concept". Your peeve here has very little to do with answering that question.

The thing is, with the first, the answer is "duh." However, if you have a group of 5 players, and only one guy is a min-maxer, the other four characters will be roughly comparable. (...) So how "essential" this is really depends on your group.

I'd say it depends a lot more on your DM. If you're playing with a guy who just uses monsters, traps, skill challenges, etc. from the books, you should do the basics of optimization.

If your DM is a math wiz and cooks his own stuff to suit your group's strengths, of course, you are free to do what you like -- you've pushed the design burden onto someone else, since he's not using the published threats, which have DCs and defenses that fall into a surprisingly tight range.

But again, this has nothing to do with the question of mine that you quoted.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Tony Vargas]

If everyone doesn't do it, then nobody has to. In other words, if you're the only guy in your group without an 18-20 in your primary attack stat, then, and only then, is when you need to worry.

I wouldn't even worry too much about how you stack up compared to your buddies, but how you stack up to the monster trying to eat your face will probably matter at some point.

PCs automatically advance thier d20 rolls and defenses at 1/2 levels. Monsters advance a 1/level. You need to be boosting stats, picking feats, acquiring items, and whatever else it takes to keep up with the monsters. If you're expertly 'optimizing' you're probably beating the monsters, if you're 'sub optimal' but still keeping up, you're fine - you're 'viable.'

 

[daddystabz]

So to be as effective as possible, what do you think is the best stat to have an 18 in right out of the box for a Dragonborn Paladin?

Str or Cha?

 

[Nifft]

So to be as effective as possible, what do you think is the best stat to have an 18 in right out of the box for a Dragonborn Paladin?

Str or Cha?

Both are good.

You need one or the other, and a bit of Wisdom.

Some points in Constitution wouldn't be wasted, either.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Arbitrary]

No, you can't, actually. Everybody is supposed to have a +<X> weapon/implement appropriate to their level all the time. So if you fall behind with your stats, thats it- you're behind forever. There simply aren't many ways to compensate for the lost attack bonus, and almost all of them (beyond star pact) depend on someone else giving you the bonus.

Stop right there.

No, everyone is not supposed to have an appropriate weapon/implement to their level at all times. A standard party of five adventures is supposed to acquire 4 magic items per level. The DMG says these are supposed to be items the party will actually use. It does not say to always make sure to include items of the highest level appropriate attack bonus.

It is up to the players to make the best of what they find and I expect them to stack magic items they find to mitigate weaknesses and accentuate strengths.

 

[aprilia4life]

You guys crack me up. 5% is 5%... that's a REALLY low percentage. It's a 11+ instead of a 10+ a one roll in TWENTY difference.

Maths and calculations aside, if your DM took -1 off or added +1 to all the AC/Wil/Fort/Ref defences of all your enemies in your campaign YOU WOULDN'T NOTICE THE DIFFERENCE (Unless you already knew the defence figures, of course).

You wouldn't be calculating the stats after 20 rounds of combat saying "I only hit 50% of the time then instead of 55%, something must be wrong..."

Some of you are like the weight weenies in cycling. Nitpicking over grams on your bike when you can easily lose the weight on yourselves (try roleplaying a bit more, hitting 1 more time in 20 doesn't matter)

 

[hamishspence]

the closer to the end, the bigger the difference

I.e. if monster is hitting on 20s, and without that +1 to Defense its hitting on 19-20s, thats twice as often. Same of its a player and =1 to attack.

On the other hand, if its that hard to hit, somone is in trouble.

 

[daddystabz]

So to be as effective as possible, what do you think is the best stat to have an 18 in right out of the box for a Dragonborn Paladin? Which stat is best to put to 18 overall?