Your Harebrained Ideas?

[Emberashh]

y concern would be that making it conditional on how you spend it will prove confusing for players. It’s probably not something they do often enough, so it seems like it would be a point of friction

I don't think so, particularly for the individual pools idea. When you resolve getting the increases, you'd be doing so by going through each pool and making the checks (1d20+1d12; roll over your current Skill value; this is why individual pools would be a rapid acceleration), and presumably you'd go spend them at the same time.

But even with the generic pool, thats where you'd track what Skills you used, so you'd know what you're eligible to take.

 

[kenada]

I don't think so, particularly for the individual pools idea. When you resolve getting the increases, you'd be doing so by going through each pool and making the checks (1d20+1d12; roll over your current Skill value; this is why individual pools would be a rapid acceleration), and presumably you'd go spend them at the same time.

But even with the generic pool, thats where you'd track what Skills you used, so you'd know what you're eligible to take.

I was assuming skill points would accrue over time and then be spent. If you spend them as you generate them, then my concern is not really an issue.

Is there anything that costs enough skill points that you would have to bank them to spend later?

 

[Emberashh]

I was assuming skill points would accrue over time and then be spent. If you spend them as you generate them, then my concern is not really an issue.

Is there anything that costs enough skill points that you would have to bank them to spend later?

Yep, thats how multiclassing works, especially as you try to go really wild with it. Costs increase +1 for secondary class levels, +2 for tertiary, and so on.

However, I have realized I actually haven't looked at what I designed in a while and so I forgot a number of things, namely that I actually stopped short of resolving the how the new leveling system works.

The big difference is that, originally, Classes weren't freely buyable. You only got them by earning 10SPs, and so you had an upper limit on how many Classes you could freely mix together. (Roughly speaking about 2 and a half).

Moving to the DB style leveling was important for a lot of other reasons, but it also begged for a simpler way to character build, and I suppose thats where I stopped and got distracted working on something else.

Thinking through it now, though, I think the way I'll square it is just by putting in a "Level" limit for Classes; ie, you can buy Class levels freely, but you have a hard limit of 100 to work with. That brings the full class limit to 2.2 approximately, which works.

However, it occurs to me that because Perks would have no limit, there'd be a perverse incentive to never actually level up certain Skills to max, as then you could exploit that to get an endless stream of Perks and ranks.

But I think I could resolve that by doing the same thing I do for Class Abilities; Thresholds and Skill requisites. Abilities wouldn't just have their base effectiveness gated by your level in that Skill, but also through Thresholds during use; the optimal play is a higher roll, so you want to get your Modifier maxed, which means not only getting the individual Skill up to max, but also the other 3 Skills in that Talent.

Between those two ideas, as well as the fact that your Skills all feed directly into your Energies, there won't be much of a point to trying to abuse it. Would still need testing to identify any issues, but I think this should all work, and indeed would make for a more plainly balanced system. (My intent is that even if you cheated on your character building the game would still be balanced; firmly rooting balance outside of character building either way)

So overall, while not as free wheeling as I might have described it, I think overall it should still produce a fun character building aspect, and as mentioned, the default progression paths for mono-classing would still be there for those that don't want to mess with it.

 

[Tonguez]

As part of my desire to have skillbased magic I was thinking of an effects based spell system where you build spells based on variables of target size, duration, power etc. Then I took the leap of turning physical damage (Pierce/Bludgeon/slash) into the Kinetic Energy type - which meant spells could be created that did Kinetic (slashing) damage.

So I was looking at the weapon summoning spells and thought well why not customisable Weapons for Fighters too?

so now Fighters get to build a weapon - deciding on damage type, reach, weapon traits etc
Still working on exact mechanics but if a Fighter wants to weild a Peircing d6-versatile-penetrating-weapon with 10ft reach they can summon/draw one when they want it. At higher levels the fighter might even be able to make it returning or set it on fire as a flaming weapon (+6 fire damage)

 

[Emberashh]

As part of my desire to have skillbased magic I was thinking of an effects based spell system where you build spells based on variables of target size, duration, power etc. Then I took the leap of turning physical damage (Pierce/Bludgeon/slash) into the Kinetic Energy type - which meant spells could be created that did Kinetic (slashing) damage.

So I was looking at the weapon summoning spells and thought well why not customisable Weapons for Fighters too?

so now Fighters get to build a weapon - deciding on damage type, reach, weapon traits etc
Still working on exact mechanics but if a Fighter wants to weild a Peircing d6-versatile-penetrating-weapon with 10ft reach they can summon/draw one when they want it. At higher levels the fighter might even be able to make it returning or set it on fire as a flaming weapon (+6 fire damage)

We are of a like mind, though I took the route of expanding physical damage rather than compressing it. I use damage combos as unique damage types, such as Blunt/Slashing (for axe type weapons).

Magic can only access these through specific kinds of Earth and Metal elemental spells, which come with their own drawbacks as being less useful in the overall "meta" of magic, but fit in just fine with the physical meta.

And Craftings a huge part of my game across the board too. Full customization and a comprehensive crafting and gathering experience to go with it.

 

[kenada]

Yep, thats how multiclassing works, especially as you try to go really wild with it. Costs increase +1 for secondary class levels, +2 for tertiary, and so on.

Is it a correct assumption that once you decide to bank the SP (e.g., to buy a level in something), it’s no longer available to spend on skill advancement or perks?

Moving to the DB style leveling was important for a lot of other reasons, but it also begged for a simpler way to character build, and I suppose thats where I stopped and got distracted working on something else.

What’s “DB style leveling”?

However, I have realized I actually haven't looked at what I designed in a while and so I forgot a number of things, namely that I actually stopped short of resolving the how the new leveling system works.

The big difference is that, originally, Classes weren't freely buyable. You only got them by earning 10SPs, and so you had an upper limit on how many Classes you could freely mix together. (Roughly speaking about 2 and a half).

Thinking through it now, though, I think the way I'll square it is just by putting in a "Level" limit for Classes; ie, you can buy Class levels freely, but you have a hard limit of 100 to work with. That brings the full class limit to 2.2 approximately, which works.

However, it occurs to me that because Perks would have no limit, there'd be a perverse incentive to never actually level up certain Skills to max, as then you could exploit that to get an endless stream of Perks and ranks.

But I think I could resolve that by doing the same thing I do for Class Abilities; Thresholds and Skill requisites. Abilities wouldn't just have their base effectiveness gated by your level in that Skill, but also through Thresholds during use; the optimal play is a higher roll, so you want to get your Modifier maxed, which means not only getting the individual Skill up to max, but also the other 3 Skills in that Talent.

Let me restate to confirm my understanding. I used the forum search to try and fill in some gaps.

• Characters have classes with levels. Classes have abilities. Are which abilities you have level-based?
• Characters have a profession and bloodline. Professions have ranks, which can be increased. Professions also have perks. Do bloodlines have perks?
• Characters have a number of skills. Skill use generates SP. Skills also have perks.
• Characters have talents, which are derived from your skills. Talents appear to be similar to attributes or ability scores in other games.
• Characters have energies, which are also based on your skills. Energies are things like stamina and HP.
• SP may be spent to gain class levels, profession ranks, perks, and skills. SP spent on skills and skill perks must be generated by the skill being improved.
• Edit: These things may have requirements such as prerequisites you must meet before you can take something or thresholds (of talents?) to meet that determine what effects you get from perks.

Between those two ideas, as well as the fact that your Skills all feed directly into your Energies, there won't be much of a point to trying to abuse it. Would still need testing to identify any issues, but I think this should all work, and indeed would make for a more plainly balanced system.

So overall, while not as free wheeling as I might have described it, I think overall it should still produce a fun character building aspect, and as mentioned, the default progression paths for mono-classing would still be there for those that don't want to mess with it.

Testing is definitely going to be important. I particularly like doing it iteratively. That’s been very helpful when working on my homebrew system.

The most obvious thing that sticks out to me (as a good thing to test) is there are a lot of different ways to customize a character that use the same currency. Having different pools (as you considered in post #29) might be easier to balance and provide clarity to players about what they should be increasing when.

For example, if I focus just on skills, which I think should maximize my Talents, is that character going to be better or worse than one that spreads SP or another that focuses on a group of options (related skills, perks, etc)?

(My intent is that even if you cheated on your character building the game would still be balanced; firmly rooting balance outside of character building either way)

I like it when games make it possible to reconcile builds to make sure they were done correctly, which is something I try to do in my homebrew system (i.e., it is possible to add up the EXP spent skills, specialities, and proficiencies with unspent EXP, and the sum should match your total EXP), but making the game still function in the facing of cheating seems like it ought to be a non-goal.

What if players write 10000 for all the numbers on their sheets or takes three capped classes? If the game is still balanced in that scenario, then it seems like character builds don’t actually matter all that much to play. However, that doesn’t appear to be the intent behind offering the character-building aspect. I also expect it would undermine the positive feedback loop needed for playing-style reinforcement, which I assume you want.

 

[Emberashh]

Is it a correct assumption that once you decide to bank the SP (e.g., to buy a level in something), it’s no longer available to spend on skill advancement or perks?

I can see why you'd assume, but I don't see any reason to restrict that. There's no real incentive to sit on them aside from the cost reqs for multiclassing, and theres the drawback of preventing yourself from using whatever skill increase or Perk you could have had in the meantime.

What’s “DB style leveling”?

Dragonbane. Ie, mark usage and roll to confirm.

Characters have classes with levels. Classes have abilities. Are which abilities you have level-based?

• Characters have a profession and bloodline. Professions have ranks, which can be increased. Professions also have perks. Do bloodlines have perks?
• Characters have a number of skills. Skill use generates SP. Skills also have perks.
• Characters have talents, which are derived from your skills. Talents appear to be similar to attributes or ability scores in other games.
• Characters have energies, which are also based on your skills. Energies are things like stamina and HP.
• SP may be spent to gain class levels, profession ranks, perks, and skills. SP spent on skills and skill perks must be generated by the skill being improved.
• Edit: These things may have requirements such as prerequisites you must meet before you can take something or thresholds (of talents?) to meet that determine what effects you get from perks.

1. I'm incorporating a more fully realized version of what, IIRC, Dungeon World did with racial class abilities. There are 6 Class archtypes (Martials, Mages, Summoners, Mystics, Divine, Nature) and each Bloodline will have 6 different "Ability Chains", which are a group of 6 Abilities in succession, which correspond to each one. You automatically unlock the chains by taking one of the requisite Class types, and you'd spend 6SPs to max out the chain in order. This goes to 12 on a second, and so on. Same MC costs apply.

Professions, as I have them now, however work like a secondary, hybridized Skill & Class system; you have a free selection over what Perks you take within them, and every one taken raises the Profession's rank, which in turn empowers the perks within and confers its own benefits, many of which will pay dividends in the Domain system. (This where Im supporting the idea that the Party could swear off adventuring and just be legendary Bakers) Then, if you want to go for multiple Professions, the same MC costs apply.

A Chef profession, for example, would naturally empower Cooking, much moreso than the base Survival skill does, and if you commit to it you can use it to form the basis of a Restaurant type Domain (ala Bakers), which can then be combined with other Player's Professions (Hunters, Merchants, Servants, etc) to form an Alliance (party) that runs that Domain as a Business. This latter part is conceptual at this stage, no real concrete mechanics to speak of yet, but this is the direction its going in.

2. Yep you got it.

3. Yes, Talents are a basically a combination of Skill modifiers and Ability scores. Each Talent, such as Strength or Intuition, has 4 Skills associated with it. The average of the 4 Skills = your Talent Modifier, which is used to modify any Skill checks made, but also any raw Talent checks that might be called for. Each Talent then gets averaged together in specific combinations to form your Energies.

The 9 Talents are:
Strength
Agility
Endurance
Intelligence
Wisdom
Willpower
Charisma
Intuition
Luck

And the four Energies are Composure, Mana, Stamina, and Acuity.

Luck is the only oddball, not having any skills associated with it. Its progression is instead tied up in the Birthsign mechanics.

4. So in general the only hard requisite in place is that you can't skip ahead in Ability chains; you have to buy them in sequence. Each Ability/Perk however may have its effectiveness be based on one of your Skills, either through gating base effectiveness to a specific Skill level, and/or by making its effects input random (Thresholds).

For example, the Barbarian has an ability called Slam!. This lets them instantaneously grapple and/or toss their target under the right conditions. Who they can do this to is gated by their Wrestling skill (max it out to throw basically any creature, no questions asked), and it also defines a looser Threshold, as the distance of the Toss (and any damage it can cause) is gated by your Strength Talent, which Wrestling falls under.

The Ranger, however, has an unnamed ability that basically lets them stick their ear to the ground to track and identify foes at a distance (Aragorn stuff). This naturally keys off the Tracking skill, and so its effectiveness has a Threshold depending on your Skill check; higher results get more out of the Ability. If you have a reason to use this during Combat, you'd use a Skill Action to use it, which means you take one of the d20s you rolled at the beginning of the Round (representing one of two Actions) and what it rolled is what you're saying you rolled for the Ability.

For example, if I focus just on skills, which I think should maximize my Talents, is that character going to be better or worse than one that spreads SP or another that focuses on a group of options (related skills, perks, etc)?

Indeed, it is a conundrum. Generally its going to depend on where your adventures take you; you should spec into stuff that helps you succeed at what you're getting up to. But its also true that you're not meant to be able to perfectly optimize; its unsolvable intentionally.

But, because of the Skill reqs and Thresholds, this is also going to guide and reinforce a given playstyle. The mentioned Barbarian is all about being a big bruiser and position controller, and so the Skills and Perks you'd focus on, if you're concerned about Combat, would naturally play into that, not just because being a peak Barbarian asks you to focus on them, but also because they'd intuitively complement that playstyle.

But for those who want to go their own way, while they're obligate to still hit those synergies if they want maximal effectiveness, they're not held back from branching out into other ideas, and Class design plays into that, with some Ability chains giving you the option to swap which Talents count towards which Energies, which in turn means you can focus on a whole other set of possible Skills.

For example, the Barbarian has a base ability called Yawp!, which is basically a shouting ability that lets them disrupt Spells and stun their enemies, amongst other things, which comes from the Sword/Sorcery trope of barbarians always fighting against enemy mages. As part of it, you gain the ability to swap in your Willpower to calculate your Stamina, over either Strength or Agility.

This does a number of things. One, it lets you more easily spec into being really beefy, as Willpower is one of the Talents that calculates your Composure. And for two, if opens you up to focus on Willpower skills, which in turn synergize with what else Barbarians can do. Leadership is a Willpower skill, for example, and this handily synergizes with both the base Barbarian Horde you get access to as part of your core Outlander ability chain, but also with the subclass Honorbound, that further develops that and pushes the Barbarian towards a sort of Genghis Khan sort of role.

Ultimately, character progression is just one part of how you go about the game. It isn't the whole game, and so you need to diversify your concerns, and get out there and adventure. A lot of whats going to make a given character work needs you to actually play the game, essentially.

Plus, another angle to consider is that I treat Perks as, well, Perks. They exist to diversify your capabilities and elaborate on them, but they aren't necessarily required to simply display competance. Thats why Improvise Action is front and center, as thats where your competance lies across the vast bulk of potential tasks or problems to resolve.

For example, the Perk Analyze under Tactics codifies a Skill Action you can use in Combat to analyze your opponents for weaknesses and vulnerabilities.

However, you don't actually need to take the Perk to do this. You can Improvise instead, and if you want the specific mechanical effects the perk provides, it'd define the DCs for you to hit (its a step up in difficulty whenver you use IA like that; so if a Vulnerability needs a 20 to be identified by Analyze, you have to hit 25 instead)

The benefit of taking Analyze, aside from the easier difficulty, is that it gives you a no questions asked button to utilize, and provided additional, passive benefits you can't Improvise into getting (because they aren't Actions ). Analyze lets you passively use your Willpower modifier as an Acuity boost in social interactions and warfare.

In social that means you're better able to influence people, and in warfare it gives you a pretty substantive Passive Perception boost, whilst also establishing a floor for it; at +30 Willpower, you'll always percieve anything at DC30 or lower, even if your Acuity has been wrecked by some ailment.

What if players write 10000 for all the numbers on their sheets or takes three capped classes?

Naturally there's limits to what my hyperbole realistically meant lol. By cheated, I meant things like just saying you took a Perk when you weren't actually able to. You can't cheat the Stats themselves, as part of the games overall design requires that WKs maintain a track of all 9 Talents for each Player, which is important to keep gameplay smooth.

But you could cheat the Perks, and it wouldn't matter too much unless you push it and make it too obvious you've taken stuff you shouldn't have. The mechanical benefits are either too miniscule to make a difference or are gated by monitored values.

This is ultimately why Perks don't count against any sort of limit or prevent you from building up your Class or Stats. You take them when you're reasonably satisfied with the other two areas and want to diversify.

I won't say its perfect though. The overall Character progression system is still in a state of design uncertainty, as I'm currently focused on the core gameplay loops. (I actually just resolved a massive design problem I was having there, but thats a whole other topic lol)

I actually have a nagging suspicion I might just skip Skill perks entirely. They'd still be there, they'd just be level gated abilities you unlock as you increase your Skills. That'd just leave Bloodlines and Professions as stuff you need to spend on, which is more straightforward.

 

[kenada]

I can see why you'd assume, but I don't see any reason to restrict that. There's no real incentive to sit on them aside from the cost reqs for multiclassing, and theres the drawback of preventing yourself from using whatever skill increase or Perk you could have had in the meantime.

I was thinking about it from a UX perspective. If I want to save them for some reason (e.g., multiclassing), will it be obvious to me later how I’m allowed to spend those SP?

Dragonbane. Ie, mark usage and roll to confirm.

Ah. I haven’t played Dragonbane, but that sounds similar to how things worked in Call of Cthluhu (i.e., mark on success then roll against your skill later to see if it increased, which we did every few sessions.)

1. I'm incorporating a more fully realized version of what, IIRC, Dungeon World did with racial class abilities. There are 6 Class archtypes (Martials, Mages, Summoners, Mystics, Divine, Nature) and each Bloodline will have 6 different "Ability Chains", which are a group of 6 Abilities in succession, which correspond to each one. You automatically unlock the chains by taking one of the requisite Class types, and you'd spend 6SPs to max out the chain in order. This goes to 12 on a second, and so on. Same MC costs apply.

checks his copy of Dungeon World

Ah, like playbook-specific moves for each race but with additional progression options.

Professions, as I have them now, however work like a secondary, hybridized Skill & Class system; you have a free selection over what Perks you take within them, and every one taken raises the Profession's rank, which in turn empowers the perks within and confers its own benefits, many of which will pay dividends in the Domain system. (This where Im supporting the idea that the Party could swear off adventuring and just be legendary Bakers) Then, if you want to go for multiple Professions, the same MC costs apply.

A Chef profession, for example, would naturally empower Cooking, much moreso than the base Survival skill does, and if you commit to it you can use it to form the basis of a Restaurant type Domain (ala Bakers), which can then be combined with other Player's Professions (Hunters, Merchants, Servants, etc) to form an Alliance (party) that runs that Domain as a Business. This latter part is conceptual at this stage, no real concrete mechanics to speak of yet, but this is the direction its going in.

2. Yep you got it.

3. Yes, Talents are a basically a combination of Skill modifiers and Ability scores. Each Talent, such as Strength or Intuition, has 4 Skills associated with it. The average of the 4 Skills = your Talent Modifier, which is used to modify any Skill checks made, but also any raw Talent checks that might be called for. Each Talent then gets averaged together in specific combinations to form your Energies.

The 9 Talents are:
Strength
Agility
Endurance
Intelligence
Wisdom
Willpower
Charisma
Intuition
Luck

And the four Energies are Composure, Mana, Stamina, and Acuity.

Luck is the only oddball, not having any skills associated with it. Its progression is instead tied up in the Birthsign mechanics.

4. So in general the only hard requisite in place is that you can't skip ahead in Ability chains; you have to buy them in sequence. Each Ability/Perk however may have its effectiveness be based on one of your Skills, either through gating base effectiveness to a specific Skill level, and/or by making its effects input random (Thresholds).

For example, the Barbarian has an ability called Slam!. This lets them instantaneously grapple and/or toss their target under the right conditions. Who they can do this to is gated by their Wrestling skill (max it out to throw basically any creature, no questions asked), and it also defines a looser Threshold, as the distance of the Toss (and any damage it can cause) is gated by your Strength Talent, which Wrestling falls under.

The Ranger, however, has an unnamed ability that basically lets them stick their ear to the ground to track and identify foes at a distance (Aragorn stuff). This naturally keys off the Tracking skill, and so its effectiveness has a Threshold depending on your Skill check; higher results get more out of the Ability. If you have a reason to use this during Combat, you'd use a Skill Action to use it, which means you take one of the d20s you rolled at the beginning of the Round (representing one of two Actions) and what it rolled is what you're saying you rolled for the Ability.

Thanks for the additional explanation. It seems I (more or less) had the basics of it.

This is an example of a combat speciality action. Anyone can take it, but warriors would get a discount. That’s because classes primarily provide thematic direction and a few abilities. The degrees on the knockback is a WIP because I’m in the middle of changing things away from the previous two resolution mechanics.

Forceful Blow Range: per attack Target: 1 creature​

Usage Condition: Equipped Melee weapon or Unarmed.​

Make a Melee Attack or Unarmed Attack. Margin is increased by +rank. Effect: The target is knocked back margin meters. Apply mitigation as normal, but do not add any positive margin to the attack’s damage. Special: The target may choose to resist the knockback. If it does, resolve as follows:​

• All degrees: The target’s mitigation is 0 + degree (but no better than what it would have otherwise). Add margin to the damage as normal.
• Degree 0: The distance knocked back is halved.
• Degree 1+: The distance knocked back is reduced to 0.

To emphasize how minimal classes are, this is the barbarian class in its entirety. Magic Resistance is one of your two resistances (the other being Resilience). Magic Resistance normally is +2 and does not change unless you use magical gear or magical effects. Magic Resistance is used to resist magical sources while Resilience is for resisting non-magical ones. They’re like saving throws but also usable to resist consequences.

Barbarian: Those who distrust arcane magic and its practitioners are called barbarians. Many consider it an epithet, but those who take up arms and seek adventure have reclaimed it as their own. Due to the need for self-sufficiency, barbarians add survival skills to their fighting prowess.​

• Skills and Specialties: Camouflage, Survival
• Proficiencies: Armor (Light, Medium), Shields, Weapons (Pick three)
• Traits:Magical Intolerance, Magic Resistance, Survivalist
  • Magic Intolerance: MP is always 0 MP no matter what. Benefiting from a magical effect costs one additional stress. Wearing magical items costs 1d6 stress per day (may be resisted).
  • Magic Resistance: +2 + level ÷ 4 (rounding down).
  • Survivalist: Gain one additional forage when foraging.
• Actions: Detection
  • Detection: May be cast per the spell without spending MP once per 10-minute turn. Subsequent castings per 10-minute turn require MP as normal.

That’s really it. I’m currently considering revamps to default skills, specialities, and proficiencies. I want to make sure characters start out somewhat rounded since otherwise there are no constraints to increasing them beyond the cap (+5) and cost in EXP.

Indeed, it is a conundrum. Generally its going to depend on where your adventures take you; you should spec into stuff that helps you succeed at what you're getting up to. But its also true that you're not meant to be able to perfectly optimize; its unsolvable intentionally.

I’m not really looking at it from an optimization perspective so much as whether players can make decisions that will result in bad characters. But I’m also skeptical that players wouldn’t try to solve it.

I try to avoid the issue by making things that occupy the same space operate exclusively. You can’t both Power Attack and Forceful Blow nor can you Backstab and Tumbling Attack because they’re actions, and you only get to take one. Even attacking is a type of action. It’s just that things that modify attacking tell you which actions to use and how to modify them. However, you might want to invest in several of those because they are situationally useful (such as Dingo, the thief in my game who has both Backstab and Tumbling Attack).

But, because of the Skill reqs and Thresholds, this is also going to guide and reinforce a given playstyle. The mentioned Barbarian is all about being a big bruiser and position controller, and so the Skills and Perks you'd focus on, if you're concerned about Combat, would naturally play into that, not just because being a peak Barbarian asks you to focus on them, but also because they'd intuitively complement that playstyle.

But for those who want to go their own way, while they're obligate to still hit those synergies if they want maximal effectiveness, they're not held back from branching out into other ideas, and Class design plays into that, with some Ability chains giving you the option to swap which Talents count towards which Energies, which in turn means you can focus on a whole other set of possible Skills.

For example, the Barbarian has a base ability called Yawp!, which is basically a shouting ability that lets them disrupt Spells and stun their enemies, amongst other things, which comes from the Sword/Sorcery trope of barbarians always fighting against enemy mages. As part of it, you gain the ability to swap in your Willpower to calculate your Stamina, over either Strength or Agility.

This does a number of things. One, it lets you more easily spec into being really beefy, as Willpower is one of the Talents that calculates your Composure. And for two, if opens you up to focus on Willpower skills, which in turn synergize with what else Barbarians can do. Leadership is a Willpower skill, for example, and this handily synergizes with both the base Barbarian Horde you get access to as part of your core Outlander ability chain, but also with the subclass Honorbound, that further develops that and pushes the Barbarian towards a sort of Genghis Khan sort of role.

Ultimately, character progression is just one part of how you go about the game. It isn't the whole game, and so you need to diversify your concerns, and get out there and adventure. A lot of whats going to make a given character work needs you to actually play the game, essentially.

Plus, another angle to consider is that I treat Perks as, well, Perks. They exist to diversify your capabilities and elaborate on them, but they aren't necessarily required to simply display competance. Thats why Improvise Action is front and center, as thats where your competance lies across the vast bulk of potential tasks or problems to resolve.

For example, the Perk Analyze under Tactics codifies a Skill Action you can use in Combat to analyze your opponents for weaknesses and vulnerabilities.

However, you don't actually need to take the Perk to do this. You can Improvise instead, and if you want the specific mechanical effects the perk provides, it'd define the DCs for you to hit (its a step up in difficulty whenver you use IA like that; so if a Vulnerability needs a 20 to be identified by Analyze, you have to hit 25 instead)

The benefit of taking Analyze, aside from the easier difficulty, is that it gives you a no questions asked button to utilize, and provided additional, passive benefits you can't Improvise into getting (because they aren't Actions ). Analyze lets you passively use your Willpower modifier as an Acuity boost in social interactions and warfare.

In social that means you're better able to influence people, and in warfare it gives you a pretty substantive Passive Perception boost, whilst also establishing a floor for it; at +30 Willpower, you'll always percieve anything at DC30 or lower, even if your Acuity has been wrecked by some ailment.

This sounds similar to what Pathfinder 2e does with Skill Feats. An issue PF2 has had with Skill Feats is people assume they block you from even attempting the action without the skill feat even though the rules don’t say that anywhere, and the nature of the design is to let you do things more easily, quickly, or with fewer restrictions. Communicating that clearly will be key to avoid the same kind of confusion.

Naturally there's limits to what my hyperbole realistically meant lol. By cheated, I meant things like just saying you took a Perk when you weren't actually able to. You can't cheat the Stats themselves, as part of the games overall design requires that WKs maintain a track of all 9 Talents for each Player, which is important to keep gameplay smooth.

But you could cheat the Perks, and it wouldn't matter too much unless you push it and make it too obvious you've taken stuff you shouldn't have. The mechanical benefits are either too miniscule to make a difference or are gated by monitored values.

This is ultimately why Perks don't count against any sort of limit or prevent you from building up your Class or Stats. You take them when you're reasonably satisfied with the other two areas and want to diversify.

I won't say its perfect though. The overall Character progression system is still in a state of design uncertainty, as I'm currently focused on the core gameplay loops. (I actually just resolved a massive design problem I was having there, but thats a whole other topic lol)

I actually have a nagging suspicion I might just skip Skill perks entirely. They'd still be there, they'd just be level gated abilities you unlock as you increase your Skills. That'd just leave Bloodlines and Professions as stuff you need to spend on, which is more straightforward.

That makes sense. I also agree that if skill perks aren’t very impactful, they probably shouldn’t cost SP like things that do (since that would risk taking lots of perks being a trap option).

 

[Emberashh]

So it bugged me I hadn't made a decision, so I spent the day thinking on it.

I came at it from a budget perspective; I knew as a general rule, if someone completely maxes their Skills, they shouldn't be able to stack more than two full classes together, with room to invest in non-Class content.

So, I figured in order to do that, using some adjusted math for Class Level costs I already had in place, I'd need players to be able to amass around 300ish Skill Points after maxing, which to make the math even I brought up to 320. Thats with Class costs going up to 2 for 2nd, 4 for 3rd, 6 for 4th, and so on.

Each Skill will be tracked individually, and will allow 3 Usage marks. After either Resting or at Session end, you'll go through and confirm the marks. Roll 1d20, beat the current value. With a Luck score, you can add a bonus die, starting at a d4 and stepping up from there to a d12 at 30 Luck. (This was a neat idea. Not only gives another incentive to engage my Birthsign mechanics, but also lets players have some input on their progression rate)

And I decided to commit to Skill Perks being a thing; 4 for each Skill, 6 Ranks in each perk. Professions will just be "Perks" with Ranks; you get a freebie unlock at Chargen, and can spend SP to rank it up or unlock more, using the same cost progression as Classes. And then Bloodlines will be an Ability chain; 6 Abilities, 1SP each, and you automatically get them as you take the requisite class types.

From my perspective, this should give some really comepelling chew for character builders, and will be pretty non-abrasive to everyone else. Those who are fine with a mono-class will have plenty of room to specialize in precisely what they want, and without any worry of viability (assuming I don't mess up content design anyway )

If I want to save them for some reason (e.g., multiclassing), will it be obvious to me later how I’m allowed to spend those SP?

I believe this will just warrant a sidebar in the text alongside the respec rules. Shouldn't be too hard to make it clear.

Ah. I haven’t played Dragonbane, but that sounds similar to how things worked in Call of Cthluhu (i.e., mark on success then roll against your skill later to see if it increased, which we did every few sessions.)

Yep exactly. Dragonbane lies in the same BRP/Runequest heritage that COC does. (Which incidentally is why I took such a liking to it)

Ah, like playbook-specific moves for each race but with additional progression options.

Yep! Really neat idea, just a shame it was so scant in DW. Thats what inspired me to elaborate on it with more progression instead of having it just be a single ability or passive.

I’m not really looking at it from an optimization perspective so much as whether players can make decisions that will result in bad characters. But I’m also skeptical that players wouldn’t try to solve it.

Yeah, I suppose its an advantage of how high-powered my games PCs will be. Finding peak optimal will be intentionally hard (and not to mention require significant investment in playtime), but the least optimal is still going to be perfectly viable.

The only way you could do it wrong is to intentionally misuse your character. Like, specing yourself into Martial stats/classes/etc and nothing but, but constantly trying to use Magic instead of anything you're actually good at.

But even then, you'd then have to intentionally respec yourself out of being a basic mage, as you'll be leveling those skills by using them.

This sounds similar to what Pathfinder 2e does with Skill Feats. An issue PF2 has had with Skill Feats is people assume they block you from even attempting the action without the skill feat even though the rules don’t say that anywhere, and the nature of the design is to let you do things more easily, quickly, or with fewer restrictions. Communicating that clearly will be key to avoid the same kind of confusion.

Yeah I think its going to be one of the killer apps in my game. For example, my Warrior class is going to have a catalog of Techniques (like Maneuvers but better) that it uses through its Battle Combo mechanic.

Other martials won't be able to access the Combos without investing in Warrior, BUT, the Technique catalog is also a handy list of Martial stuff that could be easily referenced for Improvised Actions. No need to negotiate with the WK to get your Barbarian a useful effect out of punching someone in the Liver; just use Liver Strike .

(And as it happens, I also decided to make Mighty Deeds a core Martial mechanic, so Martials in particular are going to be able to use IA better than everyone else, giving them a viable edge over the Martial hybrids that will just have regular IA)

That makes sense. I also agree that if skill perks aren’t very impactful, they probably shouldn’t cost SP like things that do (since that would risk taking lots of perks being a trap option).

Yeah my thinking, after working through it today, is that while Perks will still be tuned to be more horizontal than vertical, I do want people to be able to pick and choose rather than just slowly accumulating stuff they might not use.

Especially because by design, characters are MAD, so you're going to have to build up a lot of Skills to reach their potential.

 

[kenada]

So it bugged me I hadn't made a decision, so I spent the day thinking on it.

I came at it from a budget perspective; I knew as a general rule, if someone completely maxes their Skills, they shouldn't be able to stack more than two full classes together, with room to invest in non-Class content.

So, I figured in order to do that, using some adjusted math for Class Level costs I already had in place, I'd need players to be able to amass around 300ish Skill Points after maxing, which to make the math even I brought up to 320. Thats with Class costs going up to 2 for 2nd, 4 for 3rd, 6 for 4th, and so on.

Each Skill will be tracked individually, and will allow 3 Usage marks. After either Resting or at Session end, you'll go through and confirm the marks. Roll 1d20, beat the current value. With a Luck score, you can add a bonus die, starting at a d4 and stepping up from there to a d12 at 30 Luck. (This was a neat idea. Not only gives another incentive to engage my Birthsign mechanics, but also lets players have some input on their progression rate)

And I decided to commit to Skill Perks being a thing; 4 for each Skill, 6 Ranks in each perk. Professions will just be "Perks" with Ranks; you get a freebie unlock at Chargen, and can spend SP to rank it up or unlock more, using the same cost progression as Classes. And then Bloodlines will be an Ability chain; 6 Abilities, 1SP each, and you automatically get them as you take the requisite class types.

From my perspective, this should give some really comepelling chew for character builders, and will be pretty non-abrasive to everyone else. Those who are fine with a mono-class will have plenty of room to specialize in precisely what they want, and without any worry of viability (assuming I don't mess up content design anyway )

Something that occurred to me while reading this is how will expansion work? It seems like classes, professions, and bloodlines are obvious expansion points. I assume the skill list itself is fairly closed, but is there space for more skill perks (or would that unbalance or dilute things)? I also assume that adding a new archetype would require updating bloodlines with appropriate ability chains. Would that preclude adding classes, or can they fall under one of the existing archetypes?