ZEITGEIST Zeitgeist, Pathfinder 2e, the magical traditions, and alchemy [spoilers]

[EarthSeraphEdna]

I know that RangerWickett has been looking into Pathfinder 2e recently, so what would the following Zeitgeistian types of magic fall under, as far as arcane vs. divine vs. occult vs. primal?

• Astrology, astronomy, and skyseeing magic? I am thinking primal, though it has always been a little strange to me that even scientific astronomy falls under primal in 4e.
• Bond of Forced Faith magic? I am thinking occult.
• Docker and notorious celebrity magic? Although it is arcane in 4e, that may only be because the 4e bard is arcane, whereas the Pathfinder 2e bard is occult.
• Duplicant magic? I am thinking occult, though I can see a case for arcane if it is dragon magic.
• Eschatologist magic? I am thinking divine or occult.
• Gidim magic, particularly hiveminds and gestalts? I am thinking occult.
• Logos magic? I am thinking occult.
• Mad shootist, steamsuit pilot, and technologist magic? I am thinking alchemical.
• Monument of war magic? I am thinking occult.
• Nethermancer magic? I am talking about those shadow-themed enemies in 4e, the nethermancers, the ambush mages, the elite occultists, and so on. I am thinking divine (shadows, in the bestiary, are divine) or occult.
• Sacrament of Apotheosis magic? I am thinking divine or occult.
• Spirit medium magic? I am thinking divine or occult.
• Technologist magic? I am thinking alchemical.
• Urban empath magic? I am thinking occult or primal.
• Vekeshi magic? I am thinking divine.

• The Axis Seal ritual? I am thinking it spans all four magical traditions.

Do these seem about right? I am trying to pin down some of the traditions I am uncertain of; I would really rather say, for example, that spirit medium magic is one or the other, but not a flexible case of either.

How would you personally handle Zeitgeist's various magics in Pathfinder 2e traditions?

For that matter, given that Pathfinder 2e divides knowledge of various planes across Arcana, Nature, Occultism, and Religion, how would they be divvied up under Zeitgeist's own cosmology?

 

[RangerWickett]

Skyseer - primal
BoFF - occult
Notorious - . . . honestly . . . divine? It's all about belief, after all. That's a particular peculiarity of this setting.
Duplicant - arcane
Eschatology - divine
Gidim - occult
Logos - divine again
Tech - sure, alchemy, or maybe arcane for like shrink rays
Monument - occult, yeah - memories manifesting as reality
Nether . . . ? Um, probably arcane. They're wizards with orbs, right?
Apotheosis - divine
Medium - occult
Urban empath - . . . ooh, I sorta like primal here, hadn't considered that; I probably would have gone for occult
Vekeshi - divine
Axis Seal - yes, great, four in concert, book it, I'm in!

 

[EarthSeraphEdna]

What makes you say that skyseeing, astrology, and astronomy are all primal, anyway? Do even the Obscurati's astrologers and astronomers, like Nathan Jierre over in Axis Island, and Thornsenkertz and Gangenwieck over in Knütpara, make use of primal magic techniques?

A mad shootist's shrink rays could very well be alchemical. After all, elixirs can outright polymorph people, even changing bodies outright (e.g. infiltrator's elixir).

I can buy the Sacrament of Apotheosis as divine. It creates a god on the spot. But what makes you call eschatologists and logoi divine in power source? You had them as psionic back in 4e; is there something that made you change your stance on them? I was under the impression that occult magic was all about strange and esoteric philosophies, whereas divine magic centered around faith in a higher power. Does that mean you consider eschatologists and logoi to have "faith in a higher power" as a more important concept than "strange and esoteric philosophies"?

The Obscurati's nethermantic division is wizardly, true. But I am thinking that that may be outdated in Pathfinder 2e's paradigm. Essentially, arcane magic and occult magic both revolve around the thorough study and cataloguing of magic, but arcane magic views magic as a science, whereas occult magic views magic as an art and a humanity, hence the massive divide in thinking between, say, wizards and bards.

The sciences are ultimately more all-encompassing, and can even view other fields through a scientific lens, such as social sciences and human geography. This is why arcane magic is the broadest type of magic by far, and why it can even apply its understanding to other types of magic; however, there are still some things it does not quite get, like the finer nuances of the intangible, which is where occult magic shines.

Would that make the Obscurati's various shadow-themed magicians more arcane, or more occult? At the moment, the occult tradition has access to all of the core rulebook's shadow-themed spells, but I can see the Obscurati poaching them through arcane, scientific study as well.

For that matter, consider Zeitgeist's own brand of dragons and fey. Normally, in Pathfinder 2e, dragons are predominantly arcane, while fey are chiefly primal, but would it be any different in Zeitgeist? I could see a case for occult dragons, given the Hex-Eater and the duplicant-maker. I could also see a case for occult fey, given the fanciful stories and whimsy that the Dreaming is made up of.