D&D (2024) There needs to be a 4th spell list.

[Micah Sweet]

Especially considering people can still play Spells Known with the Ranger and Bard right now if they really want to in this packet... just by not changing out their spells every morning.

If your prepared spells remain the same every day and never change... they essentially become your Known spells.

So it works if the player decides not to use an ability they have access to? When has  that ever worked?

 

[DEFCON 1]

I think I've proven by now that I am indeed a cynic.

I was gonna say! LOL!

Right after you posted...

We are rapidly getting to the point where I believe WotC is going to assume people make their characters online.

...my first though was "What, Micah, you aren't already at that point? What's taking you so long?!?" Heh heh

 

[DEFCON 1]

So it works if the player decides not to use an ability they have access to? When has  that ever worked?

It works fine for anyone who doesn't have their ego tied up in "playing optimally".

If you want to Know Spells but the book offers to let you Prepare Spells... and that bothers you because now you have to force yourself to not switch up your spell list every morning in order to play with Known Spells... that's on you. You are basically asking the designers to save you from yourself. "You know, I WANT to play with Known Spells, but since the book is saying I can switch them out... I HAVE to switch them out! I just HAVE to! Even though I don't want to! Why are the designers doing this to me?!? Just force me to use Known Spells and I have never have to feel like I'm playing badly!"

As you can tell... I don't find that to be a cogent argument or one WotC needs to listen to all that much.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I don’t particularly care about known spells casting. I’m fine with moving past it. What I don’t like seeing is the gradual homogenization of character features into a single bland spellcasting mechanic.

It's the same spellcasting mechanic it's been since 2014. What makes it bland now?
And like...I can kinda see this in something like the Bard's new songs of restoration, which I will be giving the lowest possible score and explaining why at length. I just don't see it with the ranger, at all.

Well, I agree it made no sense then at least.

How can it make sense now, when the classes are still structurally more different than they were then?

Spellcasting isn’t one class feature though. It’s most of the features of every class that gets it, and in this UA it’s proportionally more of the Ranger’s features than it is in the PHB.

It's like half of the ranger, at most. It's definitely less, actually. Most of the ranger is other stuff. Hell, Hunter's Mark is less part of spellcasting now, as it is now a way to turn spell slots into damage differently from the Paladin, and works markedly differently from anyone else that gets the spell.

Like is the problem that classes share more spells in this playtest than in the current rules?

 

[TwoSix]

If you want to Know Spells but the book offers to let you Prepare Spells... and that bothers you because now you have to force yourself to not switch up your spell list every morning in order to play with Known Spells... that's on you. You are basically asking the designers to save you from yourself. "You know, I WANT to play with Known Spells, but since the book is saying I can switch them out... I HAVE to switch them out! I just HAVE to! Even though I don't want to! Why are the designers doing this to me?!? Just force me to use Known Spells and I have never have to feel like I'm playing badly!"

Because classes are assumed to be (nominally) balanced. Every feature you don't use (especially a major one like spell swapping) takes up power budget that could have been used on an ability you actually get to use in game and fits your character better, thus making you better able to express your character's identity.

That's one of the main reasons I mostly play with homebrew or just play classless; you can create a much closer mapping of your identity to the mechanics.

 

[Charlaquin]

It's the same spellcasting mechanic it's been since 2014. What makes it bland now?
And like...I can kinda see this in something like the Bard's new songs of restoration, which I will be giving the lowest possible score and explaining why at length. I just don't see it with the ranger, at all.

It was bland then too, it’s just getting even more bland as the little points of differentiation are gradually disappearing.

How can it make sense now, when the classes are still structurally more different than they were then?

They’re structurally more different now (though they are seemingly getting more structurally similar to each other in this playtest), but the way they play is far more similar. That’s the thing, 4e had a unified power structure but the things it did with that structure were diverse (and they did eventually break that structure). 5e is practically the opposite - diverse structures with homogenous gameplay, and they may eventually erase that structural diversity.

It's like half of the ranger, at most. It's definitely less, actually. Most of the ranger is other stuff. Hell, Hunter's Mark is less part of spellcasting now, as it is now a way to turn spell slots into damage differently from the Paladin, and works markedly differently from anyone else that gets the spell.

Hunter’s Mark was a cool change. The ranger has otherwise only lost features, even compared to Tasha’s, and gained nothing in exchange but more spells.

Like is the problem that classes share more spells in this playtest than in the current rules?

That’s a problem. It also seems like they’re move towards unifying the spell preparation structure across classes, which is also a problem. Also, 5e’s tendency to render every discrete power as a spell is (still) a problem.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Especially considering people can still play Spells Known with the Ranger and Bard right now if they really want to in this packet... just by not changing out their spells every morning.

If your prepared spells remain the same every day and never change... they essentially become your Known spells.

The problem is that if you do that and there's a reason to want other spells you could have in character because you've done your research (or it's just really obvious) essentially your character is playing like an idiot with a fixation. There's a huge difference between a character who doesn't do something that would significantly help their friends and team mates on a quest where their lives are on the line because they can't and one who doesn't do something because they don't want to.

Let's say that for whatever reason you know you will want to cross a body of water half a mile across in the next day or two and you're playing a 9th level ranger. The obvious way across for the whole party is Water Walk (which oddly appears to be only a Primal spell in the playtest packet) - but it is more magical than you visualise your ranger as being.

With a Spells Known ranger you simply don't know Water Walking. End of story.

With a Spells Prepared ranger if you have a long rest and you don't prepare Water Walk you're That Guy. You know the one who's "Just Playing Their Character" when they grief the rest of the party through either deliberate incompetence or sabotage. Water Walking is something you absolutely could do in character if you never change your known spells - it's just you choose not to.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

It was bland then too, it’s just getting even more bland as the little points of differentiation are gradually disappearing.

They’re structurally more different now (though they are seemingly getting more structurally similar to each other in this playtest), but the way they play is far more similar. That’s the thing, 4e had a unified power structure but the things it did with that structure were diverse (and they did eventually break that structure). 5e is practically the opposite - diverse structures with homogenous gameplay, and they may eventually erase that structural diversity.

Eh, the gameplay is hardly homogenous. less diverse than 4e sure, but I think you're badly overstating the case, here.

Hunter’s Mark was a cool change. The ranger has otherwise only lost features, even compared to Tasha’s, and gained nothing in exchange but more spells.

What features did they lose, at least compared to the Tasha's Ranger? They swapped the tasha's deft explorer for expertise, which is a win, but still got the Roving stuff. I guess they know fewer languages. They have a new version of tireless, but that's hardly a loss. Nature's Veil is kinda dumb IMO but it's filling a spot that has always been some sort of "go stealth mode" feature that comes online vastly too late to matter. It's also a waste of a spell slot, even a first level one, IMO. I'm hoping they change that to the ability to hide the party, and I'll strongly recomend that in the survey, but even as is it's the same sort of mediocre feature they had before.
Feral Senses is good, and not even described as really magical. I'd rather just get advantage of checks that rely on hearing or smell, like a wolf or other predatory beast, but I can't call it a loss. Foe Slayer is made marginally better by being lower level, so it's no worse than it was.

So they lost Hide in Plain Sight? Good, it was one of their worst features. The only actual loss I can see is Land's Stride. I guess you could call Primal Awareness being missing a loss. It's not a good feature, but it added some flavor, I guess.

That’s a problem. It also seems like they’re move towards unifying the spell preparation structure across classes, which is also a problem. Also, 5e’s tendency to render every discrete power as a spell is (still) a problem.

I guess i just don't understand the mindset of that last part. They could render step of the wind as a spell unique to monks, and I'd not care. Why would it matter? it's a limited ability that makes the monk play differently from other classes. Great!

Between that and the idea of structural differences being important to preserve, we just have too different a mindset, I guess.

 

[Minigiant]

I think I've proven by now that I am indeed a cynic.

I'm a born and raised New Yorker. I'm a cynic since birth. The baby hospital was pumping numbers I tells ya. They lucky I couldn't count yet to reveal the scam..

 

[Micah Sweet]

The problem is that if you do that and there's a reason to want other spells you could have in character because you've done your research (or it's just really obvious) essentially your character is playing like an idiot with a fixation. There's a huge difference between a character who doesn't do something that would significantly help their friends and team mates on a quest where their lives are on the line because they can't and one who doesn't do something because they don't want to.

Let's say that for whatever reason you know you will want to cross a body of water half a mile across in the next day or two and you're playing a 9th level ranger. The obvious way across for the whole party is Water Walk (which oddly appears to be only a Primal spell in the playtest packet) - but it is more magical than you visualise your ranger as being.

With a Spells Known ranger you simply don't know Water Walking. End of story.

With a Spells Prepared ranger if you have a long rest and you don't prepare Water Walk you're That Guy. You know the one who's "Just Playing Their Character" when they grief the rest of the party through either deliberate incompetence or sabotage. Water Walking is something you absolutely could do in character if you never change your known spells - it's just you choose not to.

Apparently that's our problem.