Point Buy: How Much Are Points Worth?

So I've been funking around with a new race for a product ... "design" tells me it should be LA+1, but "playability" tells me LA is usually rather blah and that early-levels implementing anything with LA involves starting the PCs above 1st (and the LA guy gets dangerously few HP) and at higher levels the things that GIVE a race LA have devalued to the point that the LA is, again, a liability.

This is in relation to d20Modern in particular (because I think the answer might be different for different d20 games) but I was thinking: "What about a different starting point buy?" EDIT: In the realm of table rules at my own games, not trying to use some odd house rule in a product.

The guy with the LA would start with fewer points than the people with non-Level Adjusted races, which would make up for his greater power at the lower levels (where ability-score bonuses to scores matter more) and taper off at higher levels (where class abilities and ranks are more important).

But how many points? What point buy do people who use pt buy for Modern use? 28? 25? 32? What do you think would be a fair reduction for a level-adjusted race? -4pt? -5pt?

This might be different for other games where, say, higher starting ability scores might matter more for MAD classes or spellcasters who need max casting stat to get their highest-level spells.

--fje

Modern has a different paradigm for "balanced" stats than D&D.

In D&D the standard "ordinary" NPC has an an array of 3 11s and 3 10s = 15 point buy.
In D20M the standard ordinary NPC has the default heroic array = 25 point buy.

In my modern games I typically use a 32 point buy.

edit: rereads original post...
are you asking what penalty to point buy can offset a level adjusted race in d20 modern? so you get the powerful race without the level adjustment?

The playable characters in Come for the Reaping have 25 point buy, and it's made by the same people who made d20 Modern.

Modern works fine with 28 point buy (which I've been using). Personally, I think requiring high stats would be an admission of failure (eg the rules make PCs too weak).

As written, Modern assumes that everyone uses a 25 point buy. PCs and NPCs alike.

It works fairly well, surprising as that may be.

In my games, I use a 30 point buy but that's because I like my games a bit more over-the-top.

Note that LA in Modern works differently from how it works in D&D. All bonus HD are folded into the LA rather than added to it, racial HD don't grant skills, base saves or BAB, though they give bonuses to attack rolls and usually give some bonus feats.

But yeah, if you want it to be LA +0 but its stat bumps make that unlikely then I'd probably short it two or four points during character generation. That should balance it out, though I'd have to actually see the race to be sure.

Well let's take, for instance, the Aasimar. It's LA +1.

Based on a 25pt buy, how many points would you shave off the buy to hand-waive the LA on the front end for an Aasimar? What do YOU think of that as a balance factor?

It's just an idea. Looking for holes to be poked in it and whatnot.

--fje

Your Aasimar is probably worth about 9 or 10.

he's got +2 to two stats--assuming you're going to use one of those bonuses to increase a stat from 16 to 18 (and it's a good idea to write your rules with the posibility of min/maxers in mind), then the statbumps alone are worth 8 points.

That leaves them with racial skill bonuses, daylight, energy resistances, and outsider traits. that's probably worth 2 or 3 more points, but they're also losing out on the feat and skills from being human, so add only 1 or 2 points for a total of 9 or 10.

arscott said:

...stuff...

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I have to completely disagree. If the goal were to turn the Aasimar into a LA -1 race then I would completely agree with arscott, but the goal is to turn it into a LA +0, which means it ends up as powerful as every other race, not weaker.

Four points for the ability scores. Lots of LA +0 races have stat bumps as well as stat penalties that never mean anything in that character's career. Also, of the two boosts the get, neither one is very useful unless he becomes an accolyte.
Three energy resistances, which are about equal to three Tough Hero talents. Tough Plus shows us that two talents are worth a feat, so I'll call this one point.
Skill bonus that equate to a +4, so I'll call this equal to the human's bonus starting skills, or equal to the Dwarf and Elf skill bonuses even though both of those races get better bonuses.
Darkvision and Archaic Weapons. This pair is trickier, since those are both worth (at least) one feat, giving the Aasimar a total of three unpenalized feats. On the other hand Elves get the same benefit and Dwarves get even more; so I'll ignore the vision and chalk the Archaic Weapons up to making up for all those free ranks that humans get at levels after first.
Outsider seems a wash. Immunity to a short list of spells and powers but cannot be revived from death, ever. The Field Medic will be disappointed that he doesn't get to raise the dead.
Spell-like ability. Light isn't very useful for an aasimar. It works great as a distraction for guards and it can be used to help his allies, but built in NVGs mean that he doesn't get any direct benefit. Probably worth another point since his caster level equals his character level.

So that's a total of six (6) points. By my estimation. Of course, my estimation has always held the aasimar to be a very weak LA +1 race.

Taking the 25pt game, would you play an Aasimar if you then got ... 19 points to buy scores, or, when it came to actual playing, would you feel the loss of score purchase points was too heavy to make building the character worth it?

I, myself, was thinking 4-5 points.

--fje

ValhallaGH said:

Tough Plus shows us that two talents are worth a feat

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The feats are very controversial because so many people think they're overpowered. D20 Future has lots of cheese in it, and it's not just restricted to equipment or classes.

(Psi)SeveredHead said:

The feats are very controversial because so many people think they're overpowered.

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And yet no one has been able to prove any sort of over-powered-ness as long as they follow the rules of the feats rather than making crap up and blaming the written feat.

But seriously, the most powerful talents are the ones that simulate a whole feat (Skill Focus, I'm looking at you). Everything else is ... about half a feat of benefit. What makes them useful is when you have multiple levels/talents working together to give you increased effect; but that's not the single talent, that's a single talent plust multiple levels in a class that you would have otherwise moved out of. Talent + X levels is a greater investment of character resources than one Feat, and achieves an affect that equals one feat.

(Psi)SeveredHead said:

D20 Future has lots of cheese in it, and it's not just restricted to equipment or classes.

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That's true. That's very, very true. But the Class Plus feats are not part of that cheese.