D&D 2E Class, subclass, background... We should go back to the 2E model

Do we need those various divisions?

  • Sure! I like Next version.

    Votes: 17 45.9%
  • Sure! I'd prefer a 2E-style division.

    Votes: 10 27.0%
  • I like classes. Just classes.

    Votes: 7 18.9%
  • Other (give a different opinion).

    Votes: 3 8.1%

If I correctly understand what the Next team is trying to do with those various divisions, I believe AD&D 2E did that, and it works just fine there. I'm all for taking that piece of 2E design and applying a modern, more robust version to D&D Next: Class Group - Class - Kit would be great, in my opinion.

Class Group: Either you are warrior, a priest, a wizard or a rogue. The class group should carry basic mechanics like ability to hit stuff, hit dice and weapon proficiency. It gives a general theme that players can relate to. If you're a fighter, fighting is your thing, but this is also true if you're a ranger or paladin. This takes some of the burden out of core classes and creates a mechanical layer where you can design mechanics aimed at a rogue type, for instance, without the player needing to figure out what is a rogue type.

Class: Your field of specialty. How your wizard casts spells makes him a mage, a warlock or a sorcerer. Without having to do the basic work now done by class groups, classes are free to take on some of the duties that are currently subclass stuff. A class doesn't change the core mechanics of a class group, adding to those mechanics instead. Each class should have at least one unique mechanic (like the fighter's weapon spec, the ranger's favored enemy, the thief's backstab and the warlock's eldritch blast) and some additional ones that need not to be unique (can be shared by other classes, made available through feats, etc).

Kit: Kits are strict archetypes, they kill subclasses and backgrounds and take their stuff. In this structure, knight can be a warrior kit instead of a paladin kit, making it also available to fighters and rangers, for instance. A kit can change something about your class, but it shouldn't mess with its unique mechanic, to keep class identity in place. Kits offer a new set of advantages, and class-specific kits can even trade some mechanical advantage for other of equivalent power.

What do you think about that?

Cheers,
 

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Li Shenron

Legend
Both the 2e way and the 5e way work for me.

I slightly prefer the 5e way because I think that class groups might cause some (slight) additional restriction to class design that we don't need.

I also really like the 5e background concept of covering what you are (or were) when not adventuring. Basically they represent your "job" or role in society, i.e. how you make a living, including "jobs" like thief and noble. Not every game needs this, in which case it's a piece of cake to ignore them. The best part is that you can mix and match backgrounds with classes for interesting results.

If it was for me, to make subclasses (aka "class choice points") perfect, I would increase the weakest ones (e.g. Ranger's Favoured Enemy, Monk's Traditions, Paladin's Oath...) so that they are on par in magnitude with the Cleric's Deities and Wizard's Traditions.
 

JamesonCourage

Adventurer
My opinion wasn't really supported in your poll, so I voted Other. I like more than four base classes (since the four named seem arbitrarily chosen and not broad enough), but I don't mind there being subclasses. It's closer to 5e, but I don't think I want mandatory subclasses either (I'm a Gladiator Fighter), which it looks like they might be thinking about doing. So, that's where I land. As always, play what you like :)
 

variant

Adventurer
Class groups are pointless other than to try to put classes into narrow boxes. Subclasses sound to be like far more extensive kits that are prebaked into the classes themselves. Neither subclasses nor kits be rid of the benefits of having backgrounds. How else does one fully create the concept of a woodsman knight-errant or a noble arcanist? Backgrounds simply have to be designed with the idea of this in mind.
 

Ratskinner

Adventurer
Class groups are pointless other than to try to put classes into narrow boxes. Subclasses sound to be like far more extensive kits that are prebaked into the classes themselves.

:confused: I don't see the (effective) difference.

Code:
Class Group     Class
Class           Subclass
Kit             Background

It would seem to me that performing this operation with more classes at the top level would be more confining than with 2e's Class Groups. I'm not sure I think its necessary to do this with as many base-classes as they seem to be attempting...but I'm willing to let it play out for now.

They have sloshed some of the bits about between the second and third levels, in a way that I approve of.

Neither subclasses nor kits be rid of the benefits of having backgrounds. How else does one fully create the concept of a woodsman knight-errant or a noble arcanist? Backgrounds simply have to be designed with the idea of this in mind.

I'm pretty sure that the profusion of kits probably covered those somewhere in 2e.;) Nonetheless I agree that the 5e way of doing this seems a bit more sensible.

I am very curious to see how or if they intend to have any of this (subclasses or background) evolve over the course of a character's career. Especially if they intend to keep serial multiclassing.
 

It would seem to me that performing this operation with more classes at the top level would be more confining than with 2e's Class Groups. I'm not sure I think its necessary to do this with as many base-classes as they seem to be attempting...

This is pretty much the point where I believe 2E model is better. Where others apparently see unnecessary restriction, I see the benefits of creating a common identity between classes that share a "DNA".

Cheers,
 


jacktannery

Explorer
Personally I really like the Next class>subclass distinction, with all the flavoursome features located at the subclass level. It reminds of the 4E powersource distinction a little:

Wizard (ie arcane)> various arcane subclasses.
Cleric (ie divine)> various divine subclasses
Fighter (ie martial heavy)> various martial subclasses that use heavy armour and heavy weapons
Rogue (ie martial light)> various martial subclasses that use light/no armour and light weapons
Paladin (ie martial heavy/divine or primal)> various martial/divine or primal subclasses
Ranger (ie martial light/divine or primal)> various martial divine or primal subclasses

Etc.

I think it is a system that really works because it can appease fans of ALL D&D editions.
- People who love playing very early editions are thrilled because it keeps the four/six most basic classes (admittedly in name only) even if the meaning of the word 'class' has changed.
- People who love playing 2nd Ed love it because it is just like classes/kits only renamed.
- People who love playing 3rd Ed might love it because of the endless potential for classes and complexity
- People who love playing 4th Ed love it because it's just re-named power sources.
-And people like me who love all editions love it because I think everyone will be happy with this approach.
 

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
Personally I really like the Next class>subclass distinction, with all the flavoursome features located at the subclass level. It reminds of the 4E powersource distinction a little:

Wizard (ie arcane)> various arcane subclasses.
Cleric (ie divine)> various divine subclasses
Fighter (ie martial heavy)> various martial subclasses that use heavy armour and heavy weapons
Rogue (ie martial light)> various martial subclasses that use light/no armour and light weapons
Paladin (ie martial heavy/divine or primal)> various martial/divine or primal subclasses
Ranger (ie martial light/divine or primal)> various martial divine or primal subclasses

Etc.

I think it is a system that really works because it can appease fans of ALL D&D editions.
- People who love playing very early editions are thrilled because it keeps the four/six most basic classes (admittedly in name only) even if the meaning of the word 'class' has changed.
- People who love playing 2nd Ed love it because it is just like classes/kits only renamed.
- People who love playing 3rd Ed might love it because of the endless potential for classes and complexity
- People who love playing 4th Ed love it because it's just re-named power sources.
-And people like me who love all editions love it because I think everyone will be happy with this approach.

As a 2e, 3e and 4e fan, this only tells me to go play those editions instead. It is too restricting and artificial, grouping classes this way doens't help at all. If warlocks, bards and sorcerers are going to be nothing but wizard subclasses, they will suffer from an outstanding lack of support, among them they have nothing in common with wizards (different hit point, attack, and base stats, for starters) and are very diverse within themselves. Bards and sorcerers were pretty much undersupported in 4e just because they weren't in phb1, if they weren't their own classes in Next that would only worsen, since unlike true wizards those classes are MAD and will need a different feat progression from wizards which remain solidly SAD. And it negates the chance of multiclassed sorcerer-wizards or bard-warlocks or bard-wizards, for starters, and those combos do make sense.

Let the subclasses do the job they are supossed to do, fine tune wizards to be more palatable to picky players, diferentiate clerics of different dieties, allow rogues to have something other than sneak attack, allow sorcerers to be a living bloodline (of many different flavors not just four or five) or just an individual with unexplained magics. In other words, let subclasses be like kits instead of forcing them to do the heavy lifting of the greater archetype. And at this point I do think the 2e model is a little better, but so far has been superseeded, and in the actual context it makes no sense anymore, trying to replace it right now superfluous and unnescessary.(I repeat it, d&d isn't just four classes anymore and hasn't been for a long time)
 

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