Spells in Savage Worlds

One of things that seems problematic for wizard-style spellcasters in Savage Worlds is the limited number of spells any particular character might know. When I read the sample lich monster entry, and it said it should probably have every spell in the book, I looked up how much it would cost. (I do agree about just assigning stats to NPCs rather than "building" them in general.) That lich would be somewhere like 300 experience points. Sure, they are a legendary super-villain, it's acceptable.

But what about a PC wizard? He'd have to be legendary just to have half the spells the lich does. Some of the spells are pretty flexible, but others are rather narrow.

It seems that the power system would work fine for superpowers, miracles, and psionics, but less so for weird science, and definitely less so for wizard style magic.

My question: Is there some sort of variant rule for this in a Savage Worlds expansion? They can't just let you learn 5 spells with each additional edge (for instance) and keep the system balanced. But if they don't do something, you really can't play a versatile wizard--you're stuck with characters with very focused powers.
 

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Stormonu

Legend
While I haven't played a lot of SW using spells, what I have encountered seems fine. The fantasy book offers some opportunities to further fine tune and expand on the list. Still, I haven't seen SW wizards running out of spells in game, unlike low level D&D heroes.

Overall, I think D&D wizards (at higher levels) suffer from too much power and variety at their disposal and make bad comparisons to other game's spell systems. I've never seen in literature a wizard who could do a tenth of what D&D high level wizards seem capable of.
 

A

amerigoV

Guest
I recall having the same reaction when I first starting fiddling with Savage Worlds. At the end of the day, its not an issue but one does have to keep a few things in mind. But lets get the first implied question out of the way.

But what about a PC wizard? He'd have to be legendary just to have half the spells the lich does. Some of the spells are pretty flexible, but others are rather narrow.

Point blank, the game does not end when one reaches Legendary. Some might even say life begins at Legendary :). Especially for the classic fantasy campaign, running 200xp and 300xp characters are not out of the question. Our group has one campaign we set in Ptolus (SW mixes guns and magic much smoother than D&D anyway) that ended the first story arc at 100xp. I am running 50 Fathoms right now, but we plan to go back to Ptolus and run those PCs for another 100xp story arc. We may do that multiple times just do see what the system can do.

So when you put it in that perspective, that all ties together very nicely.

To your actual question
My question: Is there some sort of variant rule for this in a Savage Worlds expansion? They can't just let you learn 5 spells with each additional edge (for instance) and keep the system balanced. But if they don't do something, you really can't play a versatile wizard--you're stuck with characters with very focused powers.

Big picture, Savage Worlds "wizards" tend to play like D&D 3.x sorcerers. I do agree there is a dearth of "I have a spell for that" spells. Lots of little utility spells like Knock are missing at least directly (which I will throw out some ideas for separately). But D&D has a lot of non-scaling spells that as one levels requires one to get the Improved version, whether it is named as such or not. Lets fact it, a 10th level Wizard in D&D is going to have a lot of useless spells in their spellbook. Magic Missile might still have a use, but Charm Person is very weak without using a Metamagic Feat (which is akin to taking a higher powered variant). Spells like Cure Light Wounds and Monster Summoning I become less utilized except by very clever players. In Savage Worlds, Healing and Summon "scale" automatically. Most area effect damage spells are just variants of Burst and Blast - you have to pick them up every few levels just to keep up.

So D&D has a lot of spells because the system requires it based on the scaling of the system. In the end, many a wizard and sorcerers wind up using the same 5 or 6 spells all the time and Savage Worlds does the same thing. It just does not keep changing names every couple of levels.

But what about all those utility spells? Some are quite frankly not in the system and not easily replicated (Mount for example). But even the aforemented Knock is there in a variation - Boost Trait - cast it on the Lockpick guy to ensure you get the door open. Sure its not the auto unlock of Knock - but quite frankly Knock is a bad spell for a number of reasons. Namely, it steals the thunder of what another class is doing. Boost/Lower trait (and its cousin that is area effect) is great way to simulate the helpful/general weaking spells across D&D.

Clever use of trappings replacates spells from D&D in creative ways (although I tend to avoid what I call D&D trappings anyway - I have played D&D for a long time - its time to mix up of the flavor). A clever application of Entangle can be used for Tasha's Hideous Laughter - just have the trapping change it to Spirit instead of Agility to break free. Entangle can be used for all sorts of "crowd control" spells, not just the obvious Web/Entangle.

So to me, D&D has a smaller number of spells when you categorized them by what they do and realize all the description or minor system variations are Trappings.

But lets answer your real question - "How do I make Wizards feel more 'Wizard-y'?"
First off, most Savage Worlds spells have a "second spell" built right into them when you get a Raise on the casting. By getting the raise, you trigger the Improved Version. This really becomes noticeable at Legendary when you pile on the Professional Edge. Rolling d12+2/d6+2 guarantees the spell works and gives you very good odds of getting a Raise (so extra damage, extra effect, etc). It subtle, but I really noticed it when we went back to the those aforementioned 110xp Ptolus characters - characters generally got raises when doing the things they are very good at. So give the Raise version of your spell a name too! Now spending a Bennie to get the Raise gives rise to "ah, he is trying for Maylocks Death Grip instead of Torak's Horrid Embrace".

A big key getting more "magical" is to apply magic trappings to Everything and describe it as such when using things other than Powers. For example, your Wizard infuses his body with magic to permanently harden his skin that also slows poisons in his system - that is simply bumping Vigor up a die (lets face it, its not like the wizard is starting a workout regiment - it must be magic that is causing his increase in hardiness). I ran a psionist in that aforementioned game. Here are three psionic trappings I used to describe non-spell advancements:

https://rogues-gallery.obsidianportal.com/items/pensieve-armor
https://rogues-gallery.obsidianportal.com/adventure-log/parallel-processing
https://rogues-gallery.obsidianportal.com/posts/kinetic-absorption

The armor one is for a magic item, but could easily have been applied to a skill advance. Skills are just low powered spells that are just activated a different way. My psionist "cast his mind out to search out thoughts and feelings" when he did his Streetwise roll. Stealth was a weak level Invisibility spell. Notice was more him sensing other thoughts and minds nearby that might be a danger than "seeing or hearing".

Can you do this in D&D? Sure, but 3.x made it hard to do given all the Keywords. It was easier just to make a new spell or Feat than to try to reskin an existing one.

Does it work? Well, one player in the group said because I used the trappings for everything he could never tell if what I was doing was due to a skill, an Edge, or a Power. I am very proud of the comment.
 

jeevz

First Post
Just another quick note to make wizards feel more wizardly... Some folks advocate applying trappings to skills. So purchasing the Knock spell, is purchasing the Lockpick skill and applying a magic trapping to it. So you are, in effect, casting a spell rather then fiddling with the mechanics of a lock, even though mechanically you roll a Lockpick check. You can even rule that instead of a lock pick, you need a component pouch. This can be applied to other skills too. For example, a Psionic Bounty Hunter character can apply a psionic trapping to Tracking, he meditates and his mind searches the area for residue auras.
 
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Zadmar

Explorer
D&D has lots of spells that are mechanically very similar to each other, varying primarily in power rather than function - for example magic missile, acid arrow, scorching ray, lightning bolt, flame arrow, etc, all do much the same thing. The power level in Savage Worlds is much flatter, so if you take Bolt as a Novice it'll still be just as useful at Legendary. As a result, spells tends to differ in terms of flavour rather than power, which is where trappings come in - and Savage Worlds leaves the trappings up to the player, rather than listing predefined spells.

My question: Is there some sort of variant rule for this in a Savage Worlds expansion?

There's an Arcane Background (Wizardry) in Savage War of the Burning Sky which works like the D&D wizard. You could also check out Savage Spellbook for some example trappings.
 

I'm not so much worried about making D&D style wizards as I am about allowing more free-form Mage: The Ascension style mages. It's really the flexibility that I'm looking for.

I'm actually very pleased with some of the powers, many of which were mentioned. The fact that burst, bolt, and blast will cover basically any direct damage attacks; healing, boost/lower trait, are great. But some powers seem much more focused. There is a lack of consistency about how broadly the powers apply.

I think trappings on powers can help, but I'd have to allow multiple trappings to the same mage for versatility (I get the impression that the assumed method is to pick a trapping with a power, and that's the only one you can use with it). I couldn't allow you to use any trapping you want, but I'd probably say you can pick a number of trappings for each power you know equal to the number of powers supplied by your arcane background, and wouldn't have to be the same trapping for each power (at least for magic and weird science). I'd probably make an Extra Trapping edge, that would allow you to apply an extra trapping to each power you know.

I can see reflavoring skills as magic working for me, as long as I put some bite into it. I'd say the trappings applied to the skill have actual effects in the game, and the skill usage is subject to dispel and other counter-magical measures.

Those would go a long ways, but it still seems rather limited in scope. Perhaps I'd need to build some sample characters of different types at different XP totals to get a comparison. A warrior versus a spellcaster for instance. Since I'm unlikely to use Savage Worlds for a pure fantasy game (I prefer a modern fantasy or pulp flavor with it), it wouldn't be hard to visualize the stats of an action hero and compare a spellcaster to him.

What I fear I may have to do is simply combine some of the more narrow powers together.
 

Zadmar

Explorer
I'm not so much worried about making D&D style wizards as I am about allowing more free-form Mage: The Ascension style mages. It's really the flexibility that I'm looking for.
Well there's Clint's Improvised Magic rules, the "Flexible Magic" article in SharkBytes, and Super Sorcery from the Super Powers Companion (although it would make spellcasters quite a bit more powerful than other characters).

I've previously written up a proposal for Ars Magica inspired spellcasting, and my Supernaturalis rules also include freeform magic.
 

Vaslov

Explorer
You might want to check out the Shaintar setting for ideas along the lines you are suggesting. The creator wanted to see a more flexible magic than in the Core SW rules. In this setting Druid change trappings as they cast and Sorcery uses edges to augment spells on the fly.
 

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