D&D 5E 6-8 encounters/day - how common is this?

evilbob

Explorer
But how many people do this actually?
I might be wrong, but I don't think we've ever had 6 encounters in a day. In any version of D&D. If we did, it was 4.0. But probably not even then.

I find it to be an incredibly unrealistic standard, yes. Maybe if your group was full of people who really enjoyed the battle aspect of D&D the most, but that's just not our group.
 

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S'mon

Legend
[MENTION=463]S'mon[/MENTION] tangential question about your Wilderlands campaign: do you use the original '70s material or the 3e version?

A mix, but day to day mostly from the 3e Wilderlands Box set with my own additions, eg I've added a bunch of 4e D&D lore - Nerath especially.
 

Condiments

Explorer
The largest problem I have with the 6-8 battle assumption, is that it comes with the idea of DMs forcing encounters or in words used here "policing the adventuring day". My DMing play-style is generally allowing the players to approach encounters and dungeons in a way that they want. What they encounter or are "policed" by arises naturally out of the situation they find themselves in. So, if the players take the necessary precautions, they won't be affected by nightmares/obstructions preventing long rest or more forced fights down their throat because I've arbitrary decided they haven't reached some resource limit. If my players are effectively using stealth or talking their way through encounters with minimal resource cost, I don't feel the need to push a fight on them just because.

I think my current adventure is the closest I've gotten to the 6-8 encounters with really only 2 combats so far. Here is the recap:

Party(Level 9):
Dragon Sorcerer(optimized)
Ranger/Rogue(optimized)
Circle of Land Druid(Un-optimized)
Battlemaster Fighter(Un-optimized)
NPC sorcerer

Players are adventuring into the "Sea of Moving Ice" to rescue or put-down a friendly silver dragon(Alexius) they've known for a long time that has succumbed to the mind altering influence of one of the campaign villains. Alexius is mind controlled and stupefied(acting bestial) by an "orb", or piece of flesh of the BBEG is using as a doorway to the material realm. The captain of the ship transporting them stated quite clearly that despite the pay he would only wait 2 days in these dangerous waters before leaving them stranded putting a time pressure on their efforts. They embarked off their ship that transported them onto a smaller boat and:

Encounter 1: They dealt with the environmental issues like ice threatening their boat by scrapping across its sides, and thick ice packs slowing their progress.
Result: Minimal resource cost other than time, Sorcerer used fire-bolt to try and melt any encroaching ice but it was slow going until the land druid used control water to clear the debris. He also used the spell to create a current to speed the boat up for a time.

Encounter 2: The mind controlled Silver Dragon crossed paths with group on the hunt for food around its lair.
Result: The party did its best to conceal its location from the dragon with the ranger used its pass without a trace while directing the boat with his decanter of endless water under a ridge of one of the nearby icebergs. They watched the dragon catch a large fish and begin to eat upon one of the nearby icebergs. This encounter was meant to be a tempting opportunity for the party to engage the dragon while it was vulnerable, but they would be punished heavily. The ranger then hunters marked the fish the dragon was hunting, then switched to the dragon while it was feasting. The dragon noticed this "mystical" marking, and became agitated but failed to discover the party.

Encounter 3: Following the hunter's mark on the dragon back to its lair, a large piece of ice became dislodged from one of the nearby icebergs causing a large tidal wave of water that rushed towards the party about to overwhelm them.
Result: Land Druid once again casted his trusty control water spell to part the wave as it was cresting upon the party in a badass Moses moment.

Encounter 4: They enter the front part of the lair which has tunnels and chambers carved out of the center part of this massive iceberg. The path they take was a slanted slope caked with ice, and at the bottom was a bed of thin ice. Failing certain checks, players could scrap across the jagged edges of the tunnels they were traversing, or be submerged in freezing cold water when breaking through the ice resulting in possible exhaustion.
Result: Players used divination potions to scout out possible routes before entering the lair entrance itself. Discovering the most direct route to the orb of Mundus, they moved as quietly as they could into the icy tunnels. Turns out Circle of the Land druids don't care about environmental obstructions, so he and the Range/Rogue easily moved down the slope with the help of rope. The sorcerer got lucky on a roll, and the dragonborn fighter slid on her armored butt while using the rope and her claws to steady herself(which I ruled as athletics rather than acrobatics). The Ranger scoped out the thin ice and used his decanter of endless water on cold setting(enchanted item) to strengthen the ice by letting it pour out upon the ice bed over 30 minutes.

Encounter 5: Another slope leading into a heavily fogged room with icy slick floors and thick rocks jutting out of the walls. A frost troll lay slumbering at one of the room, and a frost golem lays dormant into the wall activated by the call of its master(Mundus) or loud noises. Tunnels lead out of the chamber into other heavily guarded areas, and noise can attract patrols. Some parts of the ice are thin and players can crash through into freezing water.
Result: Sorcerer flubs his roll going down the slope hits harshly on the ground yelling out in the process waking the troll. The ranger sees the thin ice and begins to use decanter to freeze the frozen floor again, giving time for the troll to find a good hiding position for surprise. The group scouts ahead with the ranger leading after they freeze the floor, when the troll leaps upon the ranger. What follows is a deadly battle, as the ice golem waiting in the wall animates to the sound of battle and assaults the party. The resulting noise made attracts a nearby sahaguin patrol(priestess and baron) into the battle from behind further putting the party on their heels. The ranger is brought to 0, and the sorcerer is brought below 1/2 HP with the party burning through slots to deal with the enemies. Thinking it was too dangerous to stick around, the Druid heals the group and then they charge ahead to deal with the orb directly.

Encounter 6: The party enters a huge chamber slick with ice, low visibility, and ice pillars. The low visibility and space will make it difficult to deal with the silver dragon(white dragon stats) with lair actions, and the orb(with spell-casting).
Result: Having taken the most direct route the orb of Mundus, it immediately begins to work its magic upon them. It silently calls upon its dragon which renters on the far side of the chamber un-noticed by the party ready to unleash a deadly surprise round upon them. Before anything can happen, the sorcerer charges towards the orb, knowing its other-worldly origin, casts banishment. The orb of Mundus casts counter-spell to negate the effect, only to be counter-counter-spelled by sorcerer(Didn't expect that to happen, I had forgotten he had taken the spell, so out-played on my part). The orb is banished to its home plane of water. However, the dragon still magically stupefied but no longer under control by the Orb, approaches the party in a guarded curious manner as if trying to determine if they're a threat. The players try to talk the dragon down, with the sorcerer using his hat of disguise to appear as the silver dragon would in his human form. The sorcerer failed both his charisma rolls trying to pacify the dragon, and was snatched up by the curious dragon and it escaped through one of the watery tunnels in the floor with the sorcerer in his claws.

(Unplanned part of the adventure, but was made in response to player actions)
Encounter 7: The dragon swims through the ocean away from the party with the sorcerer in its clawed hands. A submerged ship of sahaguin patrol the icy depths and have been alerted by the sudden disappearance of their master's telepathic connection, seek to control the dragon and deal with any invaders to their iceberg lair.
Result: The dragon swims and then flies away for some time from its lair, eventually landing with the sorcerer upon on large iceberg where it normally feeds. The dragon, its gruff bestial nature, plays with the sorcerer roughly forcing him to burn a misty step and then greater invisibility to get away, slipping into the freezing water with only 20 HP left. The rest of the players follow as fast as they can, with a NPC sorcerer uses many of her spell slots to get the party out of the iceberg, and then uses fly to get herself and two others into the air. The druid uses his giant eagle form to follow them. The submerged sahaguin ship bursts forth from the depths, firing its harpoon guns at the players. They take a few hits, and decide to fly higher to avoid the fire. The party eventually leave the boat in the dust, but the ship continues to pursue the party to reclaim their dragon for their master.

Encounter 8: The rest of the party arrives at the dragon's iceberg while its thrashes around looking for the invisible sorcerer.
Result: After failing to make the checks to calm down the dragon, they decide to fight it. The following fight is a brutal battle even without the dragon having its lair actions. It brings down everyone but the PC and NPC sorcerer to 0 with the use of its legendary actions. They even got lucky with no breath weapon recharges, so the fight could easily have swayed into TPK territory without clever play. The sorcerer finished off the fight by poly-morphing the single digit HP fighter and druid into T-Rexs and they used their bites to finish it off before it can fly away.

Encounter 9: They decide not to finish off the dragon, but seem unable to get through to it.
Result: The ranger uses the potion of mind reading upon the nearly unconscious dragon, communicating their non-hostile intentions and memories to calm it. Once the dragon falls asleep and the party short rests the druid uses the spell Dream to enter the Dragon's thoughts and convinces it to fight against the enchantment that holds it's mind.

Next session...
Encounter 10: Nearly spent of all their hit dice and spells the party watches in horror as the sahaguin ship approaches their iceberg to re-claim their prize they've worked so hard for.
Result: To be continued...

So as you can see, through use of environmental effects and non combat encounters you can still burn through party resources to a point. The only problems I see are with fighting classes like Barbarian and Paladin and to a lesser extent fighter. Their design actually pushes the game towards more fights otherwise they will appear very powerful all the time during combat, as their most important spells rage and smite are primarily spent in-combat. At least with paladin they have some at least out of combat ability.
 

Rhenny

Adventurer
One of the best adventures I made and ran was for 8th or 9th level PCs. It had about 13 encounters (some traps, some interaction and some combat) in one day, but it also gave the party a chance to take 3 short rests.

After the party found an amulet with the image of two lovers on it, the ghosts of those two lovers appeared and spoke with different members of the party. From the conversation it was clear that neither ghost could see or sense the other. They were forever searching for each other and asked the party to help them break the curse. The adventure site had 3 outside tombs and one central tomb that the PCs had to explore. They had to explore the 3 outer ones (collecting keys) before the inside one and it took place in a graveyard. The central tomb was protected by magic so that it could not be penetrated by spell of any type short of a wish. The party needed to enter the central tomb so that they could figure out how to uncurse the two ghosts so they could reunite in the afterlife.

2 of the tombs had 1 or 2 traps and an combat encounter, which depending on how the PCs interacted with the traps, they could be handled separately or all together.

The other outside tomb had a puzzle well (that could spawn and encounter if done improperly), a rug of smothering in front of one room door, a trapped treasure room with locking door and crushing walls (that took 2 rounds to move together to squish anyone in the room), and a banquet hall of ghosts that the party interacted with to find out more about the past and the curse (again, if they didn't interact in a non-violent way, this would also be a very dangerous combat encounter).

After clearing each tomb, the PCs could use each empty tomb to take a short rest (thereby granting them 3 rests), but as soon as they stepped out of the tomb, a strange abyssal fog filled the graveyard and they had to face another encounter. The first time in the fog they faced just 1 barbed devil (I think that's what it was). The 2nd time it was 2 barbed devil's. The 3rd time it was 2 barbed devil's and 2 huge bone skeletons that tore from the ground to guard the central tomb.

The central tomb had a few nasties in it which could be 2 encounters or 1 encounter depending on how the PCs explored the tomb. (maybe some kind of Ice devil and some more powerful wights, but I can't remember now). Then they had to find the coffins of the two lovers and figure out how to break the curse.

I can't remember what the party make up was, but I think it was a rogue, a wizard, a paladin and a cleric. This adventure design worked really well and the entire story that the party was doing something ultra good/sappy to help dead lovers made the end really satisfying in a sappy Victorian way.

I wonder how the adventure would run with warlocks and barbarians in the mix. For some reason, even though they benefit from the short rest mechanic, I still think it would work fine.
 

The largest problem I have with the 6-8 battle assumption, is that it comes with the idea of DMs forcing encounters or in words used here "policing the adventuring day". My DMing play-style is generally allowing the players to approach encounters and dungeons in a way that they want. What they encounter or are "policed" by arises naturally out of the situation they find themselves in. So, if the players take the necessary precautions, they won't be affected by nightmares/obstructions preventing long rest or more forced fights down their throat because I've arbitrary decided they haven't reached some resource limit. If my players are effectively using stealth or talking their way through encounters with minimal resource cost, I don't feel the need to push a fight on them just because.

*snip*

You might not have to "police" the adventuring day to wind up with N encounters per day. You might be able to make it happen naturally based on dungeon design.

One idea I'm experimenting with this week is to build a dungeon map with the idea in mind that getting from the entrance to the treasure cannot take fewer than four encounters, even if you move straight to the treasure, and is likely to take between six and ten (given false turns, etc.). (In a way it reminds me of the ray casting algorithm for detecting whether a point is inside or outside a polygon.) Combine that with some sort of time constraint (wandering monsters, an undead mummylord who will wake up twenty-four hours after the party first breaks the seal on his tomb, an orc army which is out raiding now but gets home in three days, etc.).
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
That dragon on ice floes adventure sounded great. It certainly is possible to have adventures like this, with time constraints, and well done too!

BUT

If it's too often, it rankles. Like say look at the show 24. Each episode is 1 hour, he has 24 hours to save the world (ish) basically. First season it was awesome. After season 3-4... it kinda became ludicrous and repetitive.
 

*snip*

One idea I'm experimenting with this week is to build a dungeon map with the idea in mind that getting from the entrance to the treasure cannot take fewer than four encounters, even if you move straight to the treasure, and is likely to take between six and ten (given false turns, etc.). (In a way it reminds me of the ray casting algorithm for detecting whether a point is inside or outside a polygon.) Combine that with some sort of time constraint (wandering monsters, an undead mummylord who will wake up twenty-four hours after the party first breaks the seal on his tomb, an orc army which is out raiding now but gets home in three days, etc.).

This.
The encounter per day guideline should shape adventure design, not force the play at the table.

As to the OP, my tendency is 3 to 5 encounters in an adventuring day with the potential for more based on the players choices. I once had a 13-encounter 'day' because the players triggered time-sensitive quests with a 'lets just go over this next hill before we rest' ideology.

My main reason is to encourage the daily-resource management to be stingy and increase tension with the 'if I nova now, will there be something around the corner more important to be prepared for?' mentality.

But variety is the spice of life, so occasionally go the other way and have a single encounter in a day when the players know they can roll out the big guns and not worry about later.
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
So I've seen a couple of posts about this recently, and while I get the idea that from a game design standpoint it makes sense to be able to design dungeons, whether published or home-brewed using the rules, it just hasn't ever been important to my games.

Ultimately, I think that this guideline assumes, and it seems to be a driving force for much of the DMs and players in this thread, is that they PCs should feel the threat of potential death, and that they should be running out of resources at the end of the day.

Why should every single day tax the PCs to the max? That doesn't make sense to me. Go to the classic source material - Tolkien, Indiana Jones, Star Wars, or whatever. Those life-and-death situations are there, but not all the time. Even in war there are usually days, if not even weeks, between major battles. A small group in enemy territory might see action more frequently, but I think that's more the exception than the rule, and it's certainly not the case every day for years on end. Much of the time the threat is not being discovered, or caught, rather than the threat of death.

Part of the issue I have is the believability of the party being at full capabilities at the start of each day, then nearly dead at the end, ready to get up the next like nothing happened. Part of it may be that I've been doing this for so long, and the original design was based more on the concept of the entire adventure lasting as long as it could before the party resources were exhausted. In early games, it used to be that the PCs would go into a dungeon, and go as deep as they could before they had to return to resupply. It could be hours, it could be days, or even weeks if they brought along pack animals and/or hirelings. Success was measured by returning alive, but it wasn't a question as to whether they faced certain death by the end of each session. Success was measured by returning with more of the loot, and how much they were able to explore before running low on resources.

Another part of the issue is that if the measure of success is "not dying this session", then everybody eventually dies, because at some point everybody will fail. Sure, not dying is part of the goal, but that is normal. Given choices, people will rarely enter a situation that's kill or be killed. Intelligent creatures run away or surrender. People fight to the death only when there is something worth dying for. If the measure for a successful session is focused on whether or not they died, it just sounds to me that you're missing a huge part of what makes the game interesting and different than anything else. If you're exploring a dungeon where you know monsters live, and that they will eat you if they catch you, then you'd do your best to remain undetected as much as possible, and try to set up any combats to be as much in your favor as possible.

That's not to say that death isn't a possibility. The players certainly do worry whether they might die or not. And every combat they enter into they worry if it would be that one. But they also go to great lengths to make sure that they have the upper hand if possible, and avoid combat where they can. So they certainly don't feel that were close to death at the end of every session. Just the dread and possibility when a combat does arise.

5e actually helps increase the danger they feel in combat. It's fast, often swingy, and deadly quick. In town encounters are usually more brawls and non-lethal attacks because they don't want to end up arrested for drawing a blade. My players focus a lot on finding ways to incapacitate their enemies, in part because it makes good tactical sense, but also because they aren't evil murderers. If they can bring somebody to justice, they do, even when it's inconvenient, because that's the right thing to do.

Also, I don't build adventures/encounters based on the level of the party. Some encounters are just not winnable, at least not by combat. Their best bet is to not get caught, but if they do, then the goal is escape, not to successfully kill the creature.

Again, the source materials are full of situations like this. Bilbo never stood a chance against Smaug in combat - the whole point was to avoid encountering Smaug at all. Luke, Han, Obi-wan and Chewie had no intention of meeting anybody, much less Darth Vader, on the death star. They simply wanted to rescue Leia and get out of there. Nobody in the Fellowship wanted to confront Sauron directly, it was all about destroying the item that gave him his power before he could find them.

The problem is, most players assume that if there's a monster, it's to be killed. Combat is the default option, and this is perpetuated by the concept of balance and the proper number of encounters per day, and the level of the encounters, and such. It's all designed around the concept that the primary purpose of the game is to attack everything you come across.

One of the things I always remember that is taught to people learning to fight in the real world is that there is always somebody better than you. You don't know who that is, but they are out there. If everything is as organized as the game design would have you think, then why would PCs ever go someplace where things were optimized for their level? I'd always go someplace that was optimized for 2 or 3 levels lower than me. Sure, it would take longer to get all the treasure, but I'd get it eventually. Because it's a game. At least if the purpose is solely killing monsters and collecting treasure. Or, since they fight nearly to the death every day, but survive, they would all be overconfident. Look how well that went for Oberyn Martell in Game of Thrones.

And I guess that's why it's different for me/us. Combat isn't the focus of the game. Combat is a means to an end, a necessary evil when it occurs. Sure, evil people and creatures abound, and must be dealt with. Combat is a much more common occurrence than in our world. But we often go sessions between combats (although they might get close in some of those), and there are other mortal dangers besides just combat.

But the game isn't about combat, it's about telling the story of these characters, the world, and their place within it. They start off young, and hopefully grow to an old age. Some of that naturally involves combat. But it's not the focus. At least for us. So the number of "encounters" per day, combat or otherwise, and the amount of resources used during a given session are irrelevant. A common thread among many of the great epics is that it's about the journey. There's a great quest, such as recovering the lost ark, or reclaiming the dwarves' home from Smaug. But the story is about the journey, how Bilbo grows from a simple hobbit who doesn't go on adventures, to one who can't just stay at home anymore.

Ilbranteloth
 

RotGrub

First Post
IMO, there should be no requirement for X encounters per day. It's rather easy to toss encounters at the PCs a dungeon, but try doing it during a long overland journey. 1 random encounter roll per day seems more reasonable when the party is trekking through the wilderness.
 

Imaro

Legend
Okay I've read/skimmed the past 10-11 pages of this thread and have a couple of statements...

1. I'm confused by people who want balanced encounter guidelines but don't want contrived encounters... That's the point of guidelines isn't it? To create a baseline number of contrived encounters that are expected for the default game to maintain balance. Without this the only way the game could balance out is if every class used the same structure for all of their abilities and had the exact same amount of abilities in the long vs. short rest categories (ala 4e). Personally I'm not looking for a return to that... so I have to ask outside of a "contrived" number of encounters vs. rests how do you balance abilities with differing recharge rates?

2. Do you really have to have 6-8 encounters?

If you're doing 6 encounters and having a short rest after the first 2 and then the second 2... how is that different than having 4 encounters where the first and last encounters are equal to 2* XP of a medium encounter, and the middle two are regular med/hard encounters? You then just allow a short rest after the first encounter and 3rd encounter... it works out to roughly the same thing doesn't it?

There's also the multi-part encounter where enemies come in waves (which is actually addressed in the DM rules)... I mean if the issue is in-world verisimilitude constraints the encounter + adventuring day guidelines actually give a fair bit of flexibility when used together to address this.

I'm actually going to be trying some of this variation in encounter building out in my groups next campaign which starts this weekend if anyone is interested in how it works out.
 

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