A GMing telling the players about the gameworld is not like real life

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
So you’re saying that realism as it applies to Action Resolution mechanics in RPGs is not a matter of opinion? Interesting.

It's either more realistic or it's not. An opinion doesn't change that.

You’re right that you don’t need exact numbers to know which crowd is bigger. But you do need to understand what numbers are and how they work. You can pick out the bigger crowd because you can tell that there are more people. But even though you don’t need to count, if you did, you know you’d be right because of math.

Math plays no part of it at all. I can take a young child who knows no math and ask him which is the bigger crowd and he would be able to answer. Math can help you estimate hundreds vs. thousands, but it's not necessary to know which is the bigger crowd.

The same goes for longswords. Right know in D&D longswords have edges, hilts, are made of metal, deal damage, etc. That's a level of realism. If I say that in my game you have to sharpen them periodically, because they get dull with use and/or nicks in the blade, that would be more realistic. If I further say that they rust and need to be oiled and cared for to keep them from rusting, that would be even more realism. No math was harmed(or used) in the making of those facts.
 

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Sadras

Legend
What I find curious is that everyone understands the plain words of "more realism" and accept it on D&D material, whether it be stuff from the DMs Guild or the monthly D&D booklet (forget its name now) that Enworld produces for 5e - and yet when Max uses it ppl lose their minds and need all sorts of measures and what not.

EDIT: Latest En5isder.
Really wonder if a thread needs to opened up to discuss Mike Myler's definition of the words "more realistic"
 
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pemerton

Legend
We're saying that it's MORE realistic or in the case of Frogreaver, that it's "closer to real life."
Reread my post - I know you're saying this, and exactly what I deny. To retierate: there is more in the heaven and earth of the gameworld than is dreamed of in any GM's philosophy. GM decision-making isn't "informed decision-making", it's just one person's preferences for the fiction trumping another's.

It's not more realistic that the inhabitants of the teahouse be decided by the GM rather than determined by (say) a Streetwise check.
 

hawkeyefan

Legend
It's either more realistic or it's not. An opinion doesn't change that.

This is my point. “More realistic” may vary from person to person, no? Or is it universally the same for all? In which case, show me the metric that proves more realism just as we could count crowds to prove which was larger.

It’s all opinion.

Math plays no part of it at all. I can take a young child who knows no math and ask him which is the bigger crowd and he would be able to answer. Math can help you estimate hundreds vs. thousands, but it's not necessary to know which is the bigger crowd.

The same goes for longswords. Right know in D&D longswords have edges, hilts, are made of metal, deal damage, etc. That's a level of realism. If I say that in my game you have to sharpen them periodically, because they get dull with use and/or nicks in the blade, that would be more realistic. If I further say that they rust and need to be oiled and cared for to keep them from rusting, that would be even more realism. No math was harmed(or used) in the making of those facts.

Okay let’s take your sword sharpening example. One game requires a skill check periodically to maintain the sword. Another game just assumes this kind of mundane activity happens. So in both games, the fictional sword is being fictionally maintained.

Neither method is more realistic. They are different, sure, but carry the same level of realism.

As for the crowds and the math...I’d disagree about a child who doesn’t yet understand numbers being able to pick which crowd was bigger. But beside that, you missed the point. Yes, something like that could indeed be gauged, but it can also be proven.

So how do you prove realism in how we pretend to resolve an action? How is pretending to sharpen a sword one way more realistic than the other?

It simply isn’t.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
This is my point. “More realistic” may vary from person to person, no? Or is it universally the same for all? In which case, show me the metric that proves more realism just as we could count crowds to prove which was larger.

It’s all opinion.



Okay let’s take your sword sharpening example. One game requires a skill check periodically to maintain the sword. Another game just assumes this kind of mundane activity happens. So in both games, the fictional sword is being fictionally maintained.

Neither method is more realistic. They are different, sure, but carry the same level of realism.

As for the crowds and the math...I’d disagree about a child who doesn’t yet understand numbers being able to pick which crowd was bigger. But beside that, you missed the point. Yes, something like that could indeed be gauged, but it can also be proven.

So how do you prove realism in how we pretend to resolve an action? How is pretending to sharpen a sword one way more realistic than the other?

It simply isn’t.
It's turtles all the way down for Max. It's terribly important to him to be able to say he runs more realistically. You won't budge him; it's a matter of faith, not reason.
 

pemerton

Legend
Almost everything in FRPG play is realistic to some degree. Swords are typically made of steel, have an edged blade, a hilt, do damage, etc. There are trees, bushes, fish, air, etc. All of these things are connected in some way and in varying degrees to reality. That is realism.
Right know in D&D longswords have edges, hilts, are made of metal, deal damage, etc. That's a level of realism. If I say that in my game you have to sharpen them periodically, because they get dull with use and/or nicks in the blade, that would be more realistic. If I further say that they rust and need to be oiled and cared for to keep them from rusting, that would be even more realism.
This is one reason why I tell [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] that he doesn't play a game that's as realistic as mine.
Guess what: my games have as much of this realism you describe as yours. In fact, probably more of it, because at least some of the systems I run have rules and options for degrading armour, sharpening weapons, etc.

In my Traveller game a wild animal crawled on board the PCs' shuttle. A faceplate was shattered by a sword blow. A NPC was caught coming out of the shower while a PC stole her powered armour. Those are all things that might happen in real life. (If real life included powered armour.)

If I say that something in the game happens because I saw a pink bunny in my dreams, that's completely unrealistic. If I say the same things happens in the game because of a random die roll, that's less unrealistic, chance plays into events even though the odds will be weighted in the real world far differently than a die roll. If I know in a general way how things usually go in the real world and decide to approximate various chances of the same event happening, and then roll, that's even more realistic. I don't need to know the exact math for these things in order for the above to be true.

<snip>

It's not a matter of what makes more sense. It's a matter of what is more realistic. That things that are more realistic also often make more sense is just happy circumstance.
This is all nonsense.

Suppose that the GM has to deicde what the PCs find in the evil overlord's zoo. The GM had a dream the previous night of a pink bunny, and so decides that that's what's in the zoo. That's no less realistic than rolling the result on the Random Zoo Enclosure Table; nor than deciding based on the GM's theory of what's more or less likely to be found ina a zoo.

Which is my whole point. Decision-making based on what the GM thinks is realistic does not produce outcomes that are more realistic, or true to life, than decisions made using other processes. The fiction doesn't become less realistic because it includes cultists in the teahouse on the basis of a Streetwise roll rather than a GM decision.

And as per my post about there being more in heaven and earth - I think GM decision-making as the sole or primary system actually makes the fiction less realistic because more predicatable (unsurprisingly, given that GM decides makes it all prediction!).

hawkeyefan said:
Why would the GM picking the left branch be more "realistic" than the right branch? Perhaps the game calls for a roll from the players, and then based on the results of the roll, the GM narrates things accordingly. The player rolls well, so the GM decides that the character is capable of accurately determining that the left branch sees more traffic
This style of play doesn't lend itself well to decisions based on realism.
This is mere assertion. You have no evidence for it from your own play. There's no evidence for it in the play of others. And it's obvious just from the example that your claim is wrong. A style of play in which the GM decides the more trodden road on the basis of a check rather than prior decision-making doesn't produce a result that is any less realistic. There's nothing more realistic about any particular track being more travelled than any other.
 


Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
To retierate: there is more in the heaven and earth of the gameworld than is dreamed of in any GM's philosophy.

This is irrelevant to whether or not something is more or less realistic.

The game uses these aspects of real life with longswords. 1. they have an edge. 2. they are made of metal(primarily). 3. they have hilts. 4. they do damage. There may be others we could come up with, but those 4 will do.

Longswords have that level of realism in D&D. Are you really arguing that if I add becoming nicked and dull in combat with the need to sharpen the edge and work out the nicks, and rusting if not cared for properly, that my addition does not more closely match how longswords work in the real world?
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
This is my point. “More realistic” may vary from person to person, no? Or is it universally the same for all? In which case, show me the metric that proves more realism just as we could count crowds to prove which was larger.

It’s all opinion.

It's not all opinion. It's an absolute fact that if I add in becoming nicked and dull in combat with the need to sharpen the edge and work out the nicks, and rusting if not cared for properly to longswords, that longswords in my game more closely match how they work in the real world than they normally do in D&D. That makes it a fact that my longswords would have more realism than D&D longswords.

Okay let’s take your sword sharpening example. One game requires a skill check periodically to maintain the sword. Another game just assumes this kind of mundane activity happens. So in both games, the fictional sword is being fictionally maintained.

Neither method is more realistic. They are different, sure, but carry the same level of realism.

Sure, but in D&D there is no such dulling or assumed care. Longswords simply never nick or get dull in D&D. You've moved the goalposts of this discussion with that statement.

Me: I have apples and D&D has oranges, and apples are more realistic as they more closely match reality.

You: Well, if I change D&D so that it assumes oranges instead of apples you can't tell the difference between oranges and oranges, so realism is all subjective.

You can't see how this new argument is bunk?

So how do you prove realism in how we pretend to resolve an action? How is pretending to sharpen a sword one way more realistic than the other?

Because the other doesn't happen in D&D, so my way is in fact more realistic than D&D. Now, if you state to players at the outset that swords get dull and nicked in combat, but you are going to assume care, you've made longswords in your game more realistic. Assumed care and roleplayed care would be the same level of realism, as the damage to swords is being done and being repaired.

So I'll make it more difficult for you. Swords break in real life. If I now add breakage to combat in my game, it's more realistic than the game that doesn't have it, but does have assumed care of minor damage. Sword breakage in combat is NOT something that can just be assumed and glossed over the way you did to the damage. You either have it as a possibility in combat and have to deal with the consequences when your sword breaks or you don't.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Suppose that the GM has to deicde what the PCs find in the evil overlord's zoo. The GM had a dream the previous night of a pink bunny, and so decides that that's what's in the zoo. That's no less realistic than rolling the result on the Random Zoo Enclosure Table; nor than deciding based on the GM's theory of what's more or less likely to be found ina a zoo.

Which is my whole point. Decision-making based on what the GM thinks is realistic does not produce outcomes that are more realistic, or true to life, than decisions made using other processes. The fiction doesn't become less realistic because it includes cultists in the teahouse on the basis of a Streetwise roll rather than a GM decision.

Really? You're seriously arguing that weapon degradation happening due to a pink bunny dream is as realistic as a DM coming up with probabilities based on real world weapon degradation and going with a roll based on those odds?
 

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