A GMing telling the players about the gameworld is not like real life

Hussar said:

Frankly, I look at 5e as mostly that. Mechanically, 5e is a pretty natural extension of 4e. Granted, there's some changes - not as many encounter level powers for example. But, since 5e isn't focused on the encounter as the base unit of play, but, rather, the day, it makes sense to strip out encounter level mechanics to a large degree.

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This is interesting. So which mechanics are in 5e supporting/enforcing "the day" as base unit of play?
(I barely know of the short/long rest economy)

Maxperson said:

Shouldn't a dozen orcs be very strong for grappling?

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I seem to recall a 1e module where it is suggested that a group of mooks try to grapple the PCs if things go badly for them in regular combat, but I'm not sure where it is.

I'm reminded of Húrin in the Silmarillion after he kills 70 trolls:

Seventy times he uttered that cry; but they took him at last alive, by the command of Morgoth, for the Orcs grappled him with their hands, which clung to him still though he hewed off their arms; and ever their numbers were renewed, until at last he fell buried beneath them. Then Gothmog bound him and dragged him to Angband with mockery.

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I think the idea of characters being overborne (and possibly captured rather than killed) has a place if used sparingly.

Numidius said:

This is interesting. So which mechanics are in 5e supporting/enforcing "the day" as base unit of play?
(I barely know of the short/long rest economy)

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Now, I'm more than willing to be shown to be wrong here, but, it seems like "the day" is the base unit. 6-8 encounters per day is the presumed pacing, with small resource recovery bumps in the short rests. But, a long rest in 5e pretty much restores virtually everything (other than, maybe hit dice? Is there anything else that doesn't fully reset on a long rest?).

So, pretty much the entire game is geared around "the day" that's subdivided into 1-3 chunks split by short rests. Anything longer than a day generally falls under the rubric of downtime activity. I mean, if you want to do pretty much anything that isn't directly "adventuring", it's a downtime activity that generally takes a week at a time.

Hussar said:

Funny how you are apparently the only person reading your own definition to come to that interpretation. If something isn't lethal, it cannot kill you. If something is lethal, it will kill you. That's what lethal means. A gun is lethal because, by and large, it will kill people. That's commonly what is meant. However, it isn't necessarily true that all guns are lethal to all targets. A .22 caliber pistol is unlikely to be lethal to a healthy adult human. Possible, but, unlikely.

I would also point out that, depending on the country and your level of training, you certainly can be charged with assault with a deadly weapon when punching someone. Please don't confuse American laws with the rest of the world. Here in Japan, anyone with a black belt automatically gets charged with assault with a deadly weapon instead of common assault, for example.

But, in any case, the rest of us have moved on from your attempt to force your own idiosyncratic definitions on the discussion. Perhaps you could come and join us in our conversation, rather than trying to rehash what's already been discussed?

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Conversations around definitions of words are almost always the worst roleplaying discussions in my view. Even well meaning people engage in equivocation and other rhetorical tricks to win. Honestly, you guys should all put aside disputes over meanings of the word and try to get at the underlying substance of what everyone is trying to say (not singling you out Hussar, or suggesting you are doing any of this, just picking this moment to comment).

Bedrockgames said:

Like I said, I was just responding to the argument that came up around the word lethal. I wasn't weighing in on the gaming contention it arose from. I just found it to be a strange linguistic argument.

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Bedrockgames said:

Conversations around definitions of words are almost always the worst roleplaying discussions in my view. Even well meaning people engage in equivocation and other rhetorical tricks to win. Honestly, you guys should all put aside disputes over meanings of the word and try to get at the underlying substance of what everyone is trying to say (not singling you out Hussar, or suggesting you are doing any of this, just picking this moment to comment).

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I'd encourage you to take your own advice, then!

Maxperson said:

Shouldn't a dozen orcs be very strong for grappling?

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I dunno. I think it's somewhat counter-intuitive that they're more dangerous when grappling then when eg throwing rocks or shooting arrows or stabbing with spears.

Hussar said:

5e isn't focused on the encounter as the base unit of play, but, rather, the day

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Hussar said:

Now, I'm more than willing to be shown to be wrong here, but, it seems like "the day" is the base unit. 6-8 encounters per day is the presumed pacing, with small resource recovery bumps in the short rests.

<snip>

pretty much the entire game is geared around "the day" that's subdivided into 1-3 chunks split by short rests.

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This is, for me, the most fundamental difference between 4e and 5e. 4e is based on the encounter, and hence supports a scene-framing approach. Whereas 5e is based on "the day", and therefore - it seems to me - favours pre-plotting and GM control over encounter sequences.

There are other differences - eg 5e doesn't have skill challenges or DCs-by-level; and 4e combat seems to me to make positioning more important and interesting than 5e combat - but the pacing aspect I think is the most fundamental.

Sepulchrave II said:

I'm reminded of Húrin in the Silmarillion after he kills 70 trolls:

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Aure Entuluva!

Hussar said:

Now, I'm more than willing to be shown to be wrong here, but, it seems like "the day" is the base unit. 6-8 encounters per day is the presumed pacing, with small resource recovery bumps in the short rests. But, a long rest in 5e pretty much restores virtually everything (other than, maybe hit dice? Is there anything else that doesn't fully reset on a long rest?).

So, pretty much the entire game is geared around "the day" that's subdivided into 1-3 chunks split by short rests. Anything longer than a day generally falls under the rubric of downtime activity. I mean, if you want to do pretty much anything that isn't directly "adventuring", it's a downtime activity that generally takes a week at a time.

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Well, mainly, almost ALL spells are daily resources. Class features and other similar stuff often have a daily resource usage mechanic of some sort as well. Its not far off from 2e or earlier systems in that respect, though cantrips and rituals are mitigating factors.

I don't think that 5e is actually that much like 4e in terms of play process however. It is a much different game. The mechanical subsystems are pretty similar in a general way, but employed to different ends. I couldn't, for instance, adapt 5e to play in my preferred 4e style.

pemerton said:

I dunno. I think it's somewhat counter-intuitive that they're more dangerous when grappling then when eg throwing rocks or shooting arrows or stabbing with spears.

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This is exactly the problem. 1e has a lot of these problems though. Basically every time they attempted to make rules for adjudicating something new they created an entirely new subsystem. At best these subsystems are not coherent, they produce results which are all over the map.

1e has actually got quite a few 'combat systems'.

1. The core melee/missile combat system.
2. Spells (at least integrated fairly thoroughly with the rest, but still the rules for when a spell goes off and if it is interrupted by an attack are pretty wonky).
3. Psionic combat - works on a completely different system of segments, has radically different power levels than melee/spells. Very problematic, at best. Basically won't integrate with the rest of 1e without causing huge changes in how the game works.
4. non-lethal combat (DMG style)
5. Unarmed combat, DMG style (pummel/grapple/overbear).
6. non-lethal combat vs dragons (MM)
7. non-lethal combat (UA Appendix R)
8. Unarmed combat Style 1 (UA Appendix Q)
9. Unarmed combat Style 2 (UA Appendix Q)
10. OA Unarmed combat
11. OA Martial Arts
12. Dragon Martial Arts (3 versions, build on the OA ones)

There are probably MORE than this, but none of them really works well except when used by both opponents. Some of them can sort of mix, OA martial arts are about 2-4x more deadly than normal melee (depends on exactly what styles exist and how the rules are interpreted since they are quite badly written).

Anyway, the safest assumption is they should all be dropped except basic DMG combat, and maybe some judicious use of OA MA if you need, but probably best to limit it to OA games with only OA classes (IE the Samurai is tough enough to fight in this environment, although other OA classes aren't really).