Black Hole Image - livestreamed discussion from MIT on April 12th


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Janx

Hero
Cool.

Blackhole question. technically, very smart and hard to do things happened to make that photo. I'll take that at face value.

But it looks like a round, non-light emitting object eclipsing a light source. Somebody could have shot a pic of a planet in front of a star and it seems like it could look the same.

What am I missing that the image is conveying (besides the fact that scientists know it's a blackhole instead of a planet and the scale is huger)?

Why can't we get a pic of a blackhole in the Milky Way?

These are kind of dumb questions, but I don't know the answer to them. The answer might be "duh!" to a scientist, because they're doing what worked and that's what it looks like.
 

Tonguez

A suffusion of yellow
looks like someone overexposed a photo of one of the spotlights on the Moon landing set

Disney did it better :p
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
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But it looks like a round, non-light emitting object eclipsing a light source. Somebody could have shot a pic of a planet in front of a star and it seems like it could look the same.

On Earth, we get total eclipses, because the Moon is just the right size, and just the right distance, to make that happen. The angular size of the Moon happens to match the angular size of the Sun. It is a coincidence, and happens pretty much nowhere else.

Now, look at another star. The star and its planets would be roughly the same distance from Earth (like, Alpha Centauri is about 4 light years away, so its planets are about 4 light years away). That means, to give us a total eclipse, the planet around that other star would need to be roughly the size of the star. If it is the size of a star, it *is* a star....

Also, that image was taken with observations taken at several times. So, the object would need to be in the way *each time* they looked. Does the Moon happen to be eclipsing the Sun several times over the year when you just happen to be looking up? No? Well, then it wouldn't happen here, either.

What am I missing that the image is conveying (besides the fact that scientists know it's a blackhole instead of a planet and the scale is huger)?

If you say, "besides the fact that..." then you are missing most of the point. It would be like looking at a crime scene photograph, and saying "besides the fact that someone died here..."

That object is 55 million light years away. And we can get an image of it as more than just a point of light. The object itself is roughly the same size as our solar system. If I have my factors of 10 correct, that is like getting an image of a single molecule (not grain, but *molecule*) of sugar from low Earth orbit. The fact that they were able to do it is itself astonishing.

If you take an Einsteinian simulation of a black hole of that size, and blur it for the resolution of the camera involved, you get pretty much *exactly* the photograph. On the left is the actual image. Center is the simulation. Right is the blurred simulation.

black holes.jpg

If it isn't a black hole, then it is a heck of a coincidence that it looks exactly like you'd expect a black hole to look, and that would need some very careful explaining how a thing isn't a black hole looks so much like one. This is kind of a test that black holes really are what we expect they are. Remember that no other image of a black hole has ever been taken. We have generally seen them in the past as point radio sources. This image basically verifies that black holes, roughly as we understand them, really do exist.

Why can't we get a pic of a blackhole in the Milky Way?

We can, in general, but it is somewhat harder. The Messier 87 galaxy is far away, but we look *outside* of our galaxy to see it. That means we look through relatively little blurring gas and dust between us and it. To look at one inside our galaxy, we have to look through more gas and dust.

That said, the next target for the telescope array that took this picture is Sagittarius A* - the black hole at the center of the Milky Way.
 
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Janx

Hero
Thanks for the explanations, Umbran!

Next question. If the blackhole is about the size of our solar system, how much bigger is the area of effect around it that sucks in light and thus would present like this is even bigger (a bigger black disk in the photo)? Or am I misdescribing what happens to light passing near it?
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
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Next question. If the blackhole is about the size of our solar system, how much bigger is the area of effect around it that sucks in light and thus would present like this is even bigger (a bigger black disk in the photo)? Or am I misdescribing what happens to light passing near it?

Fine question.

When I say it is "about the size of our solar system," I mean that in terms of order of magnitude - ballpark, within a factor of 10. To be more precise, I think it is actually more like a couple of solar systems across.

XKCD M87.jpg

https://xkcd.com/2135/

If I got this correct from my reading, that's the size of its event horizon, the volume within which anything that enters, even light, cannot escape.

There is a common misconception about the effects near the black hole. I will instead, use our Sun as an example.

If, somehow, our Sun got compressed to the point where it'd become a black hole, the resulting event horizon would be something less than 4 miles across. And, while it would not be shining with light any more, in terms of gravity and the orbits of the other planets... they wouldn't notice. It would still seem like a mass the size of the Sun is sitting in the middle of the solar system. Nobody would be "sucked in", any more than the Sun sucks them in. There are a few things that seem strange to us when you get really near the event horizon, but they aren't actually new or weird effects - just the same things that make our ocean tides, written very large.

Now, the M87 black hole is some 65 *billion* times the mass of the Sun. So, it is sucking things in like 65 billion suns. But, that force drops off with the square of the distance from the event horizon, just like it drops off as you leave the Earth. There is nowhere between infinity and the event horizon where there's suddenly some new level of sucking.

Except on Mondays. Mondays suck more, obviously.
 

tomBitonti

Adventurer
That XKCD sketch looks off ... but I'm reading inconsistent things about the size:

https://futurism.com/the-byte/big-m87-black-hole-compared-the-earth

The gigantic black hole, not counting the giant rings of trapped light orbiting it, is about 23.6 billion miles (38 billion kilometers) across, according to Science News.

Our entire solar system is just about 2.27 billion miles wide, meaning we could just barely fit the whole thing into the newly-imaged black hole’s event horizon.

Either the numbers are wrong, or the "could just barely fit" comment is very off.

I *think* I read elsewhere that the "size" of the event horizon is about ten times the radius of Pluto's orbit, which fits the given numbers.

But then, is the XKCD sketch off? Does the glowing region shown in the image overlap the black whole itself? Are there distortions to the apparent sizes caused by gravitational / metric distortions?

Something else that I'm wondering: The image seems to be looking down along the rotational axis of the black whole ... but is it? If the differential glow is caused by by the ring velocity pointing towards us on side and away on the other, then the image can't along an axis ... which means then we are not seeing a crisp image of the accretion disk. But then what exactly are we seeing?

Thx!
TomB
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
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That XKCD sketch looks off ... but I'm reading inconsistent things about the size:

https://futurism.com/the-byte/big-m87-black-hole-compared-the-earth


Either the numbers are wrong, or the "could just barely fit" comment is very off.

I *think* I read elsewhere that the "size" of the event horizon is about ten times the radius of Pluto's orbit, which fits the given numbers.

But then, is the XKCD sketch off? Does the glowing region shown in the image overlap the black whole itself? Are there distortions to the apparent sizes caused by gravitational / metric distortions?

You are seeing inconsistent measurements, because there are two different things being discussed. One is the event horizon of the black hole. The other is a "shadow" - the lensing effects of the black hole creat teh ring in the image that is much larger than the hole itself - the shadow's radius is about 2.6x the radius of the event horizon.

Something else that I'm wondering: The image seems to be looking down along the rotational axis of the black whole ... but is it? If the differential glow is caused by by the ring velocity pointing towards us on side and away on the other, then the image can't along an axis ... which means then we are not seeing a crisp image of the accretion disk. But then what exactly are we seeing?

If I recall correctly, we are looking *mostly* at the pole - the hole's spin axis is, iirc, angled about 15 or 20 degrees off from straight as us.
 

Umbran

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Why can't we get a pic of a blackhole in the Milky Way?

Having heard a good talk about this from MIT, I wanted to go back to this question. Part of the reason they went with M87's black hole first is due to the gas and dust issue I mentioned, but there's a bigger issue...

Before they took this image, we had some measurements of how wast gas, dust, and stars were moving around these black holes. Things around M87's black hole move a little more slowly. We expect visible changes in the image to take a couple of weeks - which means that if each observation takes a day, the image is mostly static for that period of time.

Things are moving much more quickly around SagA*, and we expect the image to change over the course of days or even hours, which means that the day-long observations used would yield very blurry images. They are planning some upgrades to the system that should help with that for the SagA* observations, but they could look at M87 without them.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
Now, the M87 black hole is some 65 *billion* times the mass of the Sun. So, it is sucking things in like 65 billion suns.

Man, that's a mind-breaking figure. I tried to put it into a context to better visualise it -- so our galaxy has about 100b stars from a quick Google search (though there were different answers). If that's the case, the black hole is over half the mass of an entire galaxy!

That's so mind-bogglingly massive. And in such a small space!
 

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