The urban fantasy market seems awfully stagnant

I understand the OP's point. I'm surprised I haven't seen it made before. Sure, you can take bits and pieces of WoD (or a lot of things) and create a setting you want out of it. But, by default it presents one highly themed version of a modern fantasy world that won't support many (I'd say maybe even *most* if you don't want to have to squint to make it look right) of the sorts of modern fantasy stories you might want to play based on common takes on supernatural lore. A setting that was both flavorful (not just DIY with a universal system) and supportive of multiple takes (focusing on the most common ones) on supernatural elements, would be a great addition to the offerings.

I'm actually working on that very thing. What is it, Saturday now? Let's see...check back with me in about...2035.
 

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Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
Sure...but if the game strives to be all things to all people, you get the kind of RPG that- to some people- suffers from bloat and possibly even imbalances. See D&D.
 

Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Supporter
I understand the OP's point. I'm surprised I haven't seen it made before. Sure, you can take bits and pieces of WoD (or a lot of things) and create a setting you want out of it. But, by default it presents one highly themed version of a modern fantasy world that won't support many (I'd say maybe even *most* if you don't want to have to squint to make it look right) of the sorts of modern fantasy stories you might want to play based on common takes on supernatural lore. A setting that was both flavorful (not just DIY with a universal system) and supportive of multiple takes (focusing on the most common ones) on supernatural elements, would be a great addition to the offerings.

I'm actually working on that very thing. What is it, Saturday now? Let's see...check back with me in about...2035.
I think it would be really difficult to write a game that supported even most of the current takes on urban fantasy. Reconciling, for example, the approach taken by the show Supernatural, with the Dresden Files, with Lev Grossman's Magicians with, say, the more dreamlike urban fantasy of Charles De Lint, seems an insurmountable task. Some of the broad strokes fit together, but the details? Not so much.

I think your comments on setting really hit the mark too. Having a rich sandbox to play in is great, and we don't all have the time and/or inclination to flesh out our own world. Plus the details of a generic system are often going to be just far enough wide of the mark to feel off.
 

I love the lore and the factions of WoD but not the rules, nor when the authors want to teach me about History but it is only annoying propaganda.

About rules I use my own mash-up, with some little changes of the d20 system, adding more abilities scores: astuteness (social manipulation, creativity to improvise), courage (bravery, but also resistance to mental stress), grace(fate/karma/luck) and technique (it is not like Destrexe but for pre-learnt actions (playing music, dance, maneuvers of martial arts), or actions what need more time, like crafting or art). And I use a fiction world, where Spanish empire can kick-ass Ottoman pirates, and mason lodges are controlled by vampire clans to conspire against Church and their crusader undead-slayers, but nobody is going to complain about that.

The urban fantasy set in real world, or a world like us, has a weak point, I call it Superman17 effect. In the comic #17 Superman stopped the second world capturing Hitler and sending him to the ONU to be judged. I mean too powerful characters can't be hidden but they alter the History. Really my setting is a mixture of noir-punk version of Ravenloft with the factions of WoD, some ideas from Kult: lost divinity and the nations from 7th Sea because using known things by the players is easier to create a lot of new names.
 

VelvetViolet

Adventurer
Okay, there's a fundamental logical issue here.

You spend a long post complaining about how WoD is fixed in one particular version of the supernatural, and then when someone points out that one corner of it isn't like that... that it can manage many different kinds of supernatural, you say it doesn't fit your fairly narrow image of what these supernatural people should be!

Pick a complaint and stick with it, I say.



You’re right. That’s why I mentioned fiction where there are multiple kinds of magic. Charmed (the reboot) featured both “witchcraft” and “Yoruban” magic. The Magicians has an entire multiverse with many different magic systems. Buffy has technopaganism. The Everlasting has a bunch of magical traditions.

Mage goes off the rails by making the main conflict of the setting (either one) into what one critic described as a “cosmic wikipedia edit war.” The tone is firmly in the realm of what many describe as “gonzo” taken to the most extreme. Heck, the 2e rulebook opens with a space battle in the orbit of Saturn. Which isn’t itself a bad thing, but it’s the only choice I’m given. What if I don’t want the setting to extend past Earth? Or past one city? Why play Mage at that point? It’s not made for me.

(When 3e tried to be more down-to-earth, the lead developer got hundreds of death threats in his email. He was literally afraid to open his inbox for a while. So that’s why I’m against World of Darkness on the basis of a “toxic community.”)

But I digress. You’re right about me arbitrarily discounting a setting. I failed to articulate myself and for that I apologize. I don’t like Mage because I only have a choice between “consensus reality” and “supernal realms.” If the M20 book was anything to go by, the “traditions” are lunatic radicals that hate modern civilization and the “technocracy” are lunatics that want to literally destroy the human spirit like a Saturday morning cartoon villain. The Awakening has a more obvious “not so different” theme for its heroes/villains, but is essentially the same conflict with different window dressing. It’s not as flexible as it claims to be. There is so much baggage in terms of setting and authorial intent. A toolkit it is not.

If I want something different, then I have to play a different game like Warlock or Dresden Files. Which have entirely different baggage. I haven’t found anything I liked consistently. There’s no game I could find with multiple different campaign settings that try to do different things like, say, All Flesh Must Be Eaten or Feed. Something like Urban Shadows is great for monster mash politics, but lacks campaign settings. Those are all on the GM.

World of Darkness has a stranglehold on the market. The creativity of other potential settings has no room to shine. Without competition, the genre stagnates.
 

Some additional thoughts on how I see the issues and what I'm trying to do to create a desirable outcome.

No system is truly "universal," because some settings would work better in other systems; sometimes they even need a unique system to really do what they do. I think some universal settings work better than others. While I'm not very familiar with the PbtA system, from the way people talk it does well supporting different settings, and is customized for each one. I think that's a commonality of the systems that work well for different settings--a reasonable degree of customization for that setting. Still, even there you aren't going to be able to support every setting and playstyle. A highly narrativist focused system won't work with some settings, just like a highly simulationist setting won't work well with others.

It is also quite a fine line to be able to encompass most of the common ideas people have about a genre/setting, while still having a richly distinct feel. Some of what I'm working on to attempt to create that involves:

A system that is internally flexible to support different playstyles. Specific meta-options can be chosen, either/or overall for a campaign, for an adventure, or for specific characters, skills, and powers. My system is on the light side, so these aren't adding a bunch of crunch. And example might be character creation and advancement. There is no default that says characters start weak. If you want to play archmagi from the get-go, you can. You could also have different levels of power between characters. This is all decided as a group. Also the primary or suggested way of handling character advancement is to do whatever makes sense. Do you want characters to get better between one story and the next? Then they do, by whatever amount you want them to. If not, they don't. My system isn't designed to function as a game. However, since I realize there might be people who really like my system overall, but are uncomfortable with that level of free-form character design, I'll provide some sort of point-buy system customized to work with the sorts of assumptions that people who want point buy want, while staying faithful to the setting I'm focusing on.

A setting that seeks to incorporate the general commonalities amongst lore (not the specifics). You can't easily mimic any particular franchise with these rules, because that isn't the point. What you can do is choose whether vampires have complex social structures or not (and even vary it in different parts of the world). There would be multiple examples of how you can do different things, some of which are compatible, and others of which are mutually exclusive. Brief examples are given for each element, and then at least two examples of how you could put those elements together for an overall world setting. Magi will not be limited with spell points nor a list of known spells. They will have something more akin to Mage: the Ascension, although it will be possible to exhaust oneself in magic, just like in physical exertion. Unlike the highly unique setting of Mage, with mages that feel totally different from common lore about mages, and with things like Paradox, this system will support more traditional feeling magi, including culturally distinct varieties as well as a common magical theme for them to interact under. You can't play everything with that, but if someone coming in with general fantasy experience wants to play a wizard in a modern fantasy setting, my setting should support the iconic ideas they most likely have.

Flavor distinctions that avoid violating common lore, and are as broadly applicable as reasonable, while still allowing for the flexibility I've mentioned. For instance, vampires will be undead. They have literally (even if only momentarily) died, and their bodies are animated by something different than a lifeforce. They aren't a species or a disease. There are some other commonalities all vampires will share. Beyond that, you can make different types of vampires, and you can include multiple types in your world if you so desire.

A lack of one true setting. While I'm shooting for more than a DIY toolset, elements of that are there, since you choose what to implement and how in the setting. I'm never going to publish a single example of anything, because then, regardless of what I say about making it your own, those single examples will become the default assumptions of what the official world looks like. I can however publish multiple highly flavorful examples, neither of which is how the world officially is, because you choose your own world.

None of that is easy. But that doesn't mean it is impossible. And no matter how well done it is, it cannot be a universal system, because there will always be settings (including highly focused modern fantasy) that aren't compatible with it, or will play much better with their own system. I'm actually a fan of both universal systems and unique, setting specific, settings. They each have their charm and function. While my system will be playstyle flexible, it can't be universal because it won't support certain extremes: having its own baseline leaning unavoidably (at least for me) limits its range of flex.

Of the techniques I'm using, one of the most useful ones, contrary to what I had expected, is to start with settings I kind of like, but don't like parts of (such as WoD), and identify what parts I don't like (or thing are highly unique), and what I think would be more traditional. I had originally attempted to start from a blank slate (and I still do in some cases), but after a lot of work eventually realized that it helps tremendously to look at it from a negative perspective (what parts would I take away from setting X), rather than only from a positive (what would I put into my setting). Both are necessary for me.

As I said, none of this is easy, and some parts are going to be easier or harder depending on setting. For instance, the same system also applies to my space opera setting, but the challenges are a bit different, since more things need to be clearly defined to make it functional, and those things may make it too distinctly unique if I'm not very careful.
 

MGibster

Legend
I don't a have a problem with extensive lore in the abstract sense, but the World of Darkness fandom seems more interested in discussing the lore than actually playing the game or creating homebrew settings.

Since Vampire isn't a generic game I think it's safe to say that most of the people playing it are more interested in the official setting than they are in a homebrew setting. And I'm not sure why you're under the impression that WoD fans are more interested in discussing the lore than they are in playing the game. I doubt there's much truth to that.


There simply doesn't seem be any game approximating Dungeons & Dragons's diversity for the urban fantasy genre, or at least none that have achieved anywhere near as much success as World of Darkness.

The Dresden Files allows players to create pretty much any kind of supernatural critter they want and it really won't break the setting. Want to make a different type of werewolf from those presented in the novels? Knock yourself out.

I don't know what to do, so I come here to ask for advice.

Other than The Dresden Files your best bet might be something like GURPS, Champions, or Savage Worlds where you can create the kitchen sink world you're looking for.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
I'm not sure why you're under the impression that WoD fans are more interested in discussing the lore than they are in playing the game.
rec.games.frp.storyteller and alt.games.white-wolf were very active back in the day, though discussion covered mechanics and PbP as well as more.

But what sorta made that claim ring a little true, to me, was the way oWoD books were written & Organized: they were generally pretty good cover-to-cover reads, but terrible in-game references. There was also an increasing emphasis on the meta-plot, the changes to and developing timeline of "the lore" of the oWoD as it worked it's way to the End Times.
 

MGibster

Legend
But what sorta made that claim ring a little true, to me, was the way oWoD books were written & Organized: they were generally pretty good cover-to-cover reads, but terrible in-game references. There was also an increasing emphasis on the meta-plot, the changes to and developing timeline of "the lore" of the oWoD as it worked it's way to the End Times.

I think a lot of gaming products from the 1990s were produced with the expectation that a significant number of people who purchased them would be reading those books rather than gaming with them. But you're right that they weren't well organized for finding the information you needed while playing. But then a lot of games published now aren't so good for finding the information you need quickly while playing.
 

Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Supporter
The Dresden Files is great, but it's not without issues. First, in runs on the Fate engine, which isn't everyone's cup of tea (although I quite like it for the right game). Second, the game has some internal balance issues around magic, but nothing deal breaking IMO. It would do a fine job with a hunter based game mimicking Supernatural or indeed most of the settings in question where the magic is pretty up the middle "spell casty" (as opposed to dream based, or something else funky).

To be fair, apparently the Accelerated release for DFRPG fixed some of the issues, but I haven't had a chance to look at it yet.
 

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