D&D General The perfect D&D edition (according to ENWORLD)

HJFudge

Explorer
I dunno. As someone who has done some physical training (running especially), it is VERY helpful to have someone come up to you when you are just exhausted and sapped and seeming like you can't go on to cheer you on. For me, anyway. Even if its someone I dislike telling me I'm a wimp...that can help too, as it inspires me to push beyond my limits.

So I guess real life has 'magical healing' too. >.>

Cause thats exactly how I picture a Warlord Heal. "Don't stop fighting! Get back up!" doesn't magically close your wounds, but HP has never meant 'meat points' anyway.
 

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Tony Vargas

Legend
That's the funny thing about that range/orc example: you seem to assume that because the Ranger HATES orcs, he must cause intraparty conflict.
That'd be the worst-case scenario, yes, and the worst-case intraparty conflict is dead PCs.
But, with a little flexibility, it can be downgrade to tension, even opportunity to character growth.

The same is true of your most-nearly-reasonable concerns about playing at the same table as a warlord. There's a worse-case scenario: loss of efficiency as one PC declines support from another. But, with a little flexibility, an acceptable dynamic might be found.


Your rationale for being a huge jerk to the entire community by warring against the inclusion of one class is that you don't want to risk maybe, someday, being seen as a jerk at one table.

I can only assume your on-line and in-person personas are very different.

Have you? Have you ever filled out a WotC survey and said, "I don't like that part. Please don't include it." Have you ever posted on the forums and said, "I think that would be bad for the game."
In another thread I said someone was evincing a little converts zeal. I suppose I'm guilty of that myself, a bit, on the issue of 5e inclusivity.

So, no, if I feel something wouldn't be great for the game, I'll emphasize it should be optional. If don't like it, myself, I won't opt into it - Its easy for me, in 5e as I run far more than play.

But, like I said, convert. Go back far enough, you'll find me saying psionics is a sci-fi bit that has no place in D&D. Heck, I'll still point out it's a sci-fi bit: just that it's fans deserve a good version of it in 5e. Coincidentally, one important part of that is magic-or-not needs to be a DM option, it's just gone either way in past eds, it needs to smoothly support either.

It's the part of about "commanding" others to strike...some variant of which which shows up in just about every version of this thing...that's not ok.
That's generally been nothing more than the names - 4e designers must have had severe name-fatigue from all the IP farming - though (youre gonna love this, but far be it from me to misrepresent the facts) the initial version of Commander's Strike was badly written and technically didnt give the ally an opt out (indeed, technically, as written, a stunned unconscious or dead ally would take the swing), ironically, though the controversy on-line was whether it was ranged, the actual issue was lost in that. Fortunately, errata fixed it, and clarified the range thing.

Lol. Fortunately this just amuses me, because we both know there's not going to be a 5e Warlord.
Yeah, my converts zeal hasnt completely worn off yet, but I acknowledge the chance is infinitesimal.

I mean, slow pace of release is one thing, but the Psion was in the pipeline for years, and only just recently retrieved it's name.
. But, yes, there's an archetype in a lot of myth, fiction, and history (or mythologized history) that is pretty much exactly the Warlord. I totally grant you that. And it's also my point. All those stories are most explicitly about a singular Hero.
So are most genre stories about any of the archetypes we see in D&D, those that are much seen as heroes, rather villains, that is.

And, really, more than other archetypes, these are likely to be in a group, after all, that's the point of support, it doesn't do any good to be all multiplier and no force.
They're also often literal/literary support to a main character.

So much of what I read about this class sounds like it's the Hero class.
Its Heroic fantasy, thats a good thing. Same is true of the Fighter, Paladin, Barbarian - they're readily identifiable heroic characters... other classes have less common, less consistently heroic sources of inspiration in genre.

Aragorn is often held up as an example. And, yes, I would agree that Aragorn is modeled by a Warlord better than by Fighter or Ranger or whatever (which is ironic, no?).
Faramir might be a less fraught example, for that reason

While LotR is an ensemble, it's not a co-equal one in terms of power - Gandalf, an archetypal wizard, is far above the others (as are other typical example -Merlin, Circe, Prospero, Medea), yet the D&D wizard starts at 1st like everyone else. (Not that it isn't Tier 1, and doesn't surpass lesser classes thanks to LFQW, but nominally co-equal.)
 
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oreofox

Explorer
Do you feel the same about bards? Or do they get a pass because the things they do are magical?

I am no fan of the Warlord as a class. They work fine as a subclass, probably of fighter (which, lo and behold, it's basically what the Battlemaster is with a lot of the maneuvers). I personally hate warlocks and wish they were never added into D&D (I thought they were stupid back in 3rd, still feel the same overall in 5e), so I got rid of them and merged their spell list into that of the sorcerer. If the warlord was ever made into a class for 5e, I'd just leave them out.

If the inclusion of the warlord is that heinous to you, don't volunteer to play in a game that includes one in the party. Talk to the DM asking them to not include it. No D&D is better than Bad D&D, and if a warlord is Bad D&D to you, then either suck it up, or decline to play. I personally don't see it being made, but it could be in a hypothetical 6e. You would always have the choice to stick with an older edition.
 


G

Guest 6801328

Guest
I dunno. As someone who has done some physical training (running especially), it is VERY helpful to have someone come up to you when you are just exhausted and sapped and seeming like you can't go on to cheer you on. For me, anyway. Even if its someone I dislike telling me I'm a wimp...that can help too, as it inspires me to push beyond my limits.

So I guess real life has 'magical healing' too. >.>

Cause thats exactly how I picture a Warlord Heal. "Don't stop fighting! Get back up!" doesn't magically close your wounds, but HP has never meant 'meat points' anyway.

I'm not arguing it's meat. That's not the point.

In one of these debates a few years ago, somebody brought up the trope of the guy (or gal) dying in the ICU, until a loved one comes in, and just their presence brings the person out of coma. Realistic or not, it's pretty common.

My response was that this is exactly my point. It's not a stranger who walks into the ICU, it's a loved one. That kind of inter-PC relationship should be defined by, well, the relationship. Not by one player's choice of class.

I've been expressing a lot of this as "I don't want this to happen to me at the table", but I really mean "I don't think this is what D&D is about."
 

HJFudge

Explorer
I'm not arguing it's meat. That's not the point.

In one of these debates a few years ago, somebody brought up the trope of the guy (or gal) dying in the ICU, until a loved one comes in, and just their presence brings the person out of coma. Realistic or not, it's pretty common.

My response was that this is exactly my point. It's not a stranger who walks into the ICU, it's a loved one. That kind of inter-PC relationship should be defined by, well, the relationship. Not by one player's choice of class.

I've been expressing a lot of this as "I don't want this to happen to me at the table", but I really mean "I don't think this is what D&D is about."

And thats fine.

But a good leader can inspire because they are charismatic. They don't have to be someone that the other person has a personal connection to.

It is like a well orchestrated musical piece performed by a great musician. You cannot HELP but have the notes and music move you. Much as a passionate orator can inflame the crowd. It doesn't require a person to consent, it just happens. This is what makes such people quite powerful...and quite dangerous.

So when a person is fighting, and feels as if they can't go on...and the man who knows how to move worlds with the right words comes in and says 'Get up'...your body responds. Regardless of choice.

Again, this happens in real life too...and doesn't need personal connection, it doesn't require consent. It is just how our emotions and brains are wired...some people can pull on those strings.

As to the deeper point of 'I just wont listen when someone tells me to strike cause I don't let others tell me what to do!'...okay. If you'd like to play that way, that is your right. But that is reason #1 that one of my character creation requirements at my table is 'You can have any kind of character concept you like within the bounds of the world/system, but you will be part of a team. You arent 4-5 lone wolves. You rise and fall together, and your characters need to accept that and have to reflect that in their concept.' Some people don't enjoy playing that way, and that is fine. There are other tables who can cater to their lone wolf needs.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Again, this happens in real life too...and doesn't need personal connection, it doesn't require consent. It is just how our emotions and brains are wired...some people can pull on those strings.

Nods it might be slightly different strings by person. Heck huge amounts of us are fairly suggestible too.

Creating an opening or Even pointing out an opening ... ally ignores the opening because player has a case of spite that sure does not sound like roleplaying to me.
 

Aldarc

Legend
Analogy to a typical 4-person rock band (and yes I know there are exceptions):

Better use of the same terms to define a band - and a party:
I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to argue with your rock band analogy. Would you mind rephrasing it in a more straightforward manner?

It is like a well orchestrated musical piece performed by a great musician. You cannot HELP but have the notes and music move you. Much as a passionate orator can inflame the crowd. It doesn't require a person to consent, it just happens. This is what makes such people quite powerful...and quite dangerous.

So when a person is fighting, and feels as if they can't go on...and the man who knows how to move worlds with the right words comes in and says 'Get up'...your body responds. Regardless of choice.

Again, this happens in real life too...and doesn't need personal connection, it doesn't require consent. It is just how our emotions and brains are wired...some people can pull on those strings.
That's actually an interesting point - and one that I believe even Matt Colville has made in a few of his videos - actual humans don't necessarily consent to how they think or feel. We are sometimes affected without any consent regarding the affecter, and it's not done by magic. We are simply irrational creatures who are not in control over what ultimately affects us.

The Warlord has an extraordinary or preternatural ability to psychosomatically affect others in the midst of combat. It's not like they can tell you what to think or feel outside of combat. They are doing it when your body is chemically and psychologically reacting to and engaged in the specific circumstances of your fight-or-flight response.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
The word Hero came from the greek translates as defender (of humanity), In 1e the DMG (harped quite a bit) I mean presented the fighter as the role to defend their squishier allies. It didnt give in game reasons for this to work mostly the DM deciding to ignore tactical choices for the bad guys I suppose.

The fighter is the archetype most often at the ahem forefront of fantasy heroic fiction...

Being in front is yet another definition of leader ... but i am fine with our Defender / Hero role name
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
Huh. I still don't see the connection. My decision to play a ranger that hates orcs in now way inhibits your ability to play an orc. However you want to play it.

Now, it may cause party tension. There may be a practical implications. But it in no way affects your character concept, or your ability to use your character features.

Imagine, instead, you showed up and said, "Ok, I have this cool orc character, but a bunch of his abilities only work if you all think orcs are cute and adorable. So I need your characters to all find orc loveable, ok?."

I'd have a problem with that.
And I think of it as "My ability to play a warlord in no way inhibits your ability to play a grump who doesn't find people inspiring." Just like if you're a paladin who doesn't want a necromancer to cast buffs on you, because they're dark magic or something.
 

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