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lowkey13
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Ralif Redhammer
Legend
Exactly! It was so weird and arbitrary...and glorious! If someone told me that there was a military pick +1, +3 vs. green monsters, I'd believe that was a thing.
All that strangeness, that unpredictability, was one of the things that made magic feel all the more magical.
All that strangeness, that unpredictability, was one of the things that made magic feel all the more magical.
Ratskinner
Adventurer
My current group is mostly Old-Schoolers....we're (supposedly) playing OSRIC right now (but players keeps crossing the streams with 1e).
My experience has been that nostalgia keeps drawing us back in...then we remember all the gaps and frustrations...then we modify the rules heavily...then we play a modern game or two for a while....rinse, repeat.
Which is not to say that there are not good features in the Old-School, compared with modern versions of D&D, many of which are noted by the posters above and the OP. However, as a system tourist, I have found that nearly all of those have been duplicated or improved-upon by other less-nostalgic systems. Unfortunately, I haven't found a game that puts all the best(IMO) of them in one place. ::shrug::
My experience has been that nostalgia keeps drawing us back in...then we remember all the gaps and frustrations...then we modify the rules heavily...then we play a modern game or two for a while....rinse, repeat.
Which is not to say that there are not good features in the Old-School, compared with modern versions of D&D, many of which are noted by the posters above and the OP. However, as a system tourist, I have found that nearly all of those have been duplicated or improved-upon by other less-nostalgic systems. Unfortunately, I haven't found a game that puts all the best(IMO) of them in one place. ::shrug::
Tony Vargas
Legend
I always figured it was inspired by Sting, Orcrist and Glamdring in The Hobbit.
I mean...
...that fits the MO of Orcrist the Goblin-Cleaver, in reverse, right?
What I liked about old school games was that my 14th fighter could have bracers of ac2, ring of protection +1 saves,+6 ac, boots of dex 18, ring of flight (GM item), bastard sword of sharpness, girdle of stone giant strength, and cloak of protection +3 and be able to use all of them, not being limited to 3 cool items.
That's -8 AC without heavy armor for those who care.
The GM was nice and allowed the cloak to work for saves and the ring to work ac.
That's -8 AC without heavy armor for those who care.
The GM was nice and allowed the cloak to work for saves and the ring to work ac.
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I wanted to share a fantastic document on old school style gaming. I link to it as a crash course for my public old
school games.
https://lithyscaphe.blogspot.com/p/principia-apocrypha.html?m=1
This document does a great job of explaining what I LOVE about old school D&D.
school games.
https://lithyscaphe.blogspot.com/p/principia-apocrypha.html?m=1
This document does a great job of explaining what I LOVE about old school D&D.
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You know, these threads always make me feel like something of an outsider in the OSR community, like I don't know what the OSR is or maybe I'm just really bad at it, because I'm not interested in Fantasy ****ing Vietnam and my "old school" is 2e AD&D after TSR's wheels fell off. I love the OSR, but it seems like everything the OSR community loves about the OSR are the things I think modern D&D actually did better.
Using the standard terminology, my preferred playstyle is Galactic Dragons & Godwars with a focus on high magic, high level, high energy play.
In a lot of ways, it feels like that's what Modern D&D is trying to do... but it's really bad at it. TSR D&D did it better... but much of the OSR community dimisses this playstyle-- which was prevalent in the early 80s-- with references to short attention spans, misplaced senses of entitlement, and "kids these days" playing too many video games.
I like the fact that the OSR (mostly) embraces the idea that character restrictions are as important as character abilities in differentiating between characters-- whether it's racial class restrictions or outright racial classes, TSR D&D and many OSR games have firmly established that the various PC races are different sorts of beings rather than funny-shaped humans. One OSR game even gave each nonhuman race its own short class list, an example I'm trying to follow in my 2e house rules.
A lot of the little things I like about the OSR aren't even conscious, deliberate choices... but simply rules that worked to serve their intended purpose before Wizards of the Coast broke them for no good reason. Combat movement, saving throws, spellcasting in melee.
See... I'm not a real big fan of the charop minigame, but I love the fact that Modern D&D keeps giving you choices every time you level up. This is great, and I don't understand why so many people are so hostile to it.
The "character build" mentality doesn't come from having options. It comes from that mutant multiclassing system and especially Prestige Classes that force players to earn their options by planning their whole character in advance. This is also why iconic class features are delayed beyond 1st level.
See this? Perfect example. Starting with my second character, ever, every single character I have played in D&D has been multiclassed-- even when it wasn't legal, and in some cases when multiclassing itself wasn't part of the rules.
Another thing I love about the OSR? Kits allowed you to modify your class archetype, and multiclassing allowed you to blend your archetypes, without turning classes into fungible building blocks or allowing characters to "dip" into classes that were not, in any way, a part of your character's identity.
I'm not trying to pick on you here-- it's just strange to me how much of the stuff OSR fans hate about Modern D&D... is the exact stuff I love about the OSR.
Of course... there are a number of items people have raised in this thread that I'd argue were the best things about Modern D&D, and I wish OSR games incorporated. From your own list... ASIs and at-will magics. Another big one for me is "unusual" non-Tolkien races. Frequent acquisition of new class features.
I just want them in a ruleset that lets you put together a character in the time between failing your last saving throw and getting hired again back in town, where you can wrap up a boss fight in a single session with time left over to divvy the loot, BMX Bandit is actually as useful as Angel Summoner, and your party wizard hasn't been "the only dwarven wizard ever" for four wizards in a row.
Bonus points if it doesn't take levels in three separate classes and five feats to qualify for the Peasant Conscript PrC whose 10th level capstone ability lets them march and complain at the same time.
Using the standard terminology, my preferred playstyle is Galactic Dragons & Godwars with a focus on high magic, high level, high energy play.
In a lot of ways, it feels like that's what Modern D&D is trying to do... but it's really bad at it. TSR D&D did it better... but much of the OSR community dimisses this playstyle-- which was prevalent in the early 80s-- with references to short attention spans, misplaced senses of entitlement, and "kids these days" playing too many video games.
I like the fact that the OSR (mostly) embraces the idea that character restrictions are as important as character abilities in differentiating between characters-- whether it's racial class restrictions or outright racial classes, TSR D&D and many OSR games have firmly established that the various PC races are different sorts of beings rather than funny-shaped humans. One OSR game even gave each nonhuman race its own short class list, an example I'm trying to follow in my 2e house rules.
A lot of the little things I like about the OSR aren't even conscious, deliberate choices... but simply rules that worked to serve their intended purpose before Wizards of the Coast broke them for no good reason. Combat movement, saving throws, spellcasting in melee.
See... I'm not a real big fan of the charop minigame, but I love the fact that Modern D&D keeps giving you choices every time you level up. This is great, and I don't understand why so many people are so hostile to it.
The "character build" mentality doesn't come from having options. It comes from that mutant multiclassing system and especially Prestige Classes that force players to earn their options by planning their whole character in advance. This is also why iconic class features are delayed beyond 1st level.
See this? Perfect example. Starting with my second character, ever, every single character I have played in D&D has been multiclassed-- even when it wasn't legal, and in some cases when multiclassing itself wasn't part of the rules.
Another thing I love about the OSR? Kits allowed you to modify your class archetype, and multiclassing allowed you to blend your archetypes, without turning classes into fungible building blocks or allowing characters to "dip" into classes that were not, in any way, a part of your character's identity.
I'm not trying to pick on you here-- it's just strange to me how much of the stuff OSR fans hate about Modern D&D... is the exact stuff I love about the OSR.
Of course... there are a number of items people have raised in this thread that I'd argue were the best things about Modern D&D, and I wish OSR games incorporated. From your own list... ASIs and at-will magics. Another big one for me is "unusual" non-Tolkien races. Frequent acquisition of new class features.
I just want them in a ruleset that lets you put together a character in the time between failing your last saving throw and getting hired again back in town, where you can wrap up a boss fight in a single session with time left over to divvy the loot, BMX Bandit is actually as useful as Angel Summoner, and your party wizard hasn't been "the only dwarven wizard ever" for four wizards in a row.
Bonus points if it doesn't take levels in three separate classes and five feats to qualify for the Peasant Conscript PrC whose 10th level capstone ability lets them march and complain at the same time.
Ralif Redhammer
Legend
While I love 1e and BECMI and OD&D, I do think 2e deserves a place at the OSR table. If we date the OSR as beginning with Hackmaster in 2001 (though I'm sure that's a debatable point), by now 2e has been out of print longer than 1e had been out of print at the point when the OSR began.
Hell, if we're going to mark the OSR by the publication of Hackmaster, the means that the very first retroclone was based on 2e.
I'll take it.
Tony Vargas
Legend
Heck, that's when I gave up on D&D for about 5 years.
2e may be /T/SR, but IDK if it qualifies as /O/SR? It doesn't seem Old to me.
Hackmaster? /2/e A&DD?
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