True enough, in The Chronicles of Riddick, he was still evil - but judged only by Pitch Black (a much better movie, IMO) I'd peg him as having changed alignment.
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Conan's Morality
- Thread starter Water Bob
- Start date
True enough, in The Chronicles of Riddick, he was still evil - but judged only by Pitch Black (a much better movie, IMO) I'd peg him as having changed alignment.
D'karr
Adventurer
I don't know, Riddick always struck me as CN with very small good tendencies, in all the movies. The movies never explain who he killed that got him thrown in the slammer to begin with. For all we know whoever he killed, "deserved to die". In Pitch Black the only "person" he kills is the jackhole mercenary (Johns) that wanted to sacrifice Jack. That guy deserved to die.
Riddick was always out for himself that is true, but that didn't mean he didn't care about people, that seemed to deserve it. In pitch black he could have left without Imam and Jack, but didn't. In Dark Fury he goes out of his way to protect both Imam and Jack. In Chronicles, he's left the Helion System because he wants to be left alone. He only returns after 5 years because of the bounty on his head.
He doesn't kill Toombs, or any of the original crew of mercs that come to hunt him. He protects Imam and his family from the necromongers, and the only merc he ends up "killing" is the jackhole that wanted his goggles. In Crematoria he kills a guard that is roughing up Jack (death by teacup), and anyone else he kills for the rest of the movie are villains themselves.
Much like Conan, I don't think he falls anywhere near the CE category.
Deuce Traveler
Adventurer
The system won't let me give you more XP, so let me say "good job". I think 'A Witch Shall Be Born' shows much of Conan's character... his savagery, mirth, and nobility. If they ever want to do a Conan movie based on REH's writings instead of the bastardized versions we have been given, this is the tale they should pick.
Deuce Traveler
Adventurer
Just to add to this, REH's Conan was less forceful towards women than Connery's James Bond. He respects Valeria, and in the end she decides to sleep with him because she in turn learns to respect him after their adventures together. He earns her affections through his dedication to her. James Bond simply takes Pussy Galore in a barn.
w_earle_wheeler
First Post
For the most part, Conan doesn't have to "force" women... he is a fictional super character who has the kind of Charisma that leads women to force their attention upon him.
However, when a woman he finds interesting is able to push him away (usually because they find him to be too intense or savage) that is usually when he will pursue them and attempt to garner their favor. Think of King Kong in the Peter Jackson re-make. Kong uses human women as his plaything until one stands up to him. At first, he throws a tantrum, but then he attempts to prove himself to her (also, he stands "butt first" to her in an attempt to demonstrate that, as an alpha, he really doesn't care if she lives or dies).
It is the same Conan Charisma that holds together his raiding parties... if I recall correctly, he generally usurps pirates/mercenaries/bandits from their brutal leaders. After that, Conan must placate his teams with profit, and while they still behave like bandits, it is only the force of his Charisma which holds them together when they are not allowed to behave like complete psychopaths all the time. Eventually, Conan is usually turned on and has to move on.
Conan is, in a way, a Lawful character... but the Law he follows is the "ideal" law of men. His "superior" feelings of what is right and what is wrong make him an outsider even in his homeland.
Conan belongs to a REH ideal that a true man will always make the straightest course to the most interesting means of personal (or financial) advancement. He will not live his life in fear and he will not live his life with regret over past actions, though he will learn from failures and moral mistakes.
As pointed out above, Chaotic Neutral -- total personal focus without malicious intent toward others BUT with little regard for their perceived weakness; and later, Chaotic Good, in that he is driven by the right for all people to be as free as possible.
However, when a woman he finds interesting is able to push him away (usually because they find him to be too intense or savage) that is usually when he will pursue them and attempt to garner their favor. Think of King Kong in the Peter Jackson re-make. Kong uses human women as his plaything until one stands up to him. At first, he throws a tantrum, but then he attempts to prove himself to her (also, he stands "butt first" to her in an attempt to demonstrate that, as an alpha, he really doesn't care if she lives or dies).
It is the same Conan Charisma that holds together his raiding parties... if I recall correctly, he generally usurps pirates/mercenaries/bandits from their brutal leaders. After that, Conan must placate his teams with profit, and while they still behave like bandits, it is only the force of his Charisma which holds them together when they are not allowed to behave like complete psychopaths all the time. Eventually, Conan is usually turned on and has to move on.
Conan is, in a way, a Lawful character... but the Law he follows is the "ideal" law of men. His "superior" feelings of what is right and what is wrong make him an outsider even in his homeland.
Conan belongs to a REH ideal that a true man will always make the straightest course to the most interesting means of personal (or financial) advancement. He will not live his life in fear and he will not live his life with regret over past actions, though he will learn from failures and moral mistakes.
As pointed out above, Chaotic Neutral -- total personal focus without malicious intent toward others BUT with little regard for their perceived weakness; and later, Chaotic Good, in that he is driven by the right for all people to be as free as possible.
Gentlegamer
Adventurer
Put me in the Chaotic Neutral (good tendencies), with alignment shifting to Chaotic Good (neutral tendencies) when older camp.
Here's an excerpt from 'Queen of the Black Coast' that not only illustrates the barbarian mindset but also Chaotic Neutral alignment (in my opinion):
"Why do the guardsman pursue you?" asked Tito. "Not that it's any of my business, but I thought perhaps--"
"I've nothing to conceal," replied the Cimmerian. "By Crom, though I've spent considerable time among you civilized peoples, your ways are still beyond my comprehension. "Well, last night in a tavern, a captain in the king's guard offered violence to the sweetheart of a young soldier, who naturally ran him through. But it seems there is some cursed law against killing guardsmen, and the boy and his girl fled away. It was bruited about that I was seen with them, and so today I was haled into court, and a judge asked me where the lad had gone. I replied that since he was a friend of mine, I could not betray him. Then the court waxed wrath, and the judge talked a great deal about my duty to the state, and society, and other things I did not understand, and bade me tell where my friend had flown. By this time I was becoming wrathful myself, for I had explained my position.
"But I choked my ire and held my peace, and the judge squalled that I had shown contempt for the court, and that I should be hurled into a dungeon to rot until I betrayed my friend. So then, seeing they were all mad, I drew my sword and cleft the judge's skull; then I cut my way out of the court, and seeing the high constable's stallion tied near by, I rode for the wharfs, where I thought to find a ship bound for foreign parts."
Here's an excerpt from 'Queen of the Black Coast' that not only illustrates the barbarian mindset but also Chaotic Neutral alignment (in my opinion):
"Why do the guardsman pursue you?" asked Tito. "Not that it's any of my business, but I thought perhaps--"
"I've nothing to conceal," replied the Cimmerian. "By Crom, though I've spent considerable time among you civilized peoples, your ways are still beyond my comprehension. "Well, last night in a tavern, a captain in the king's guard offered violence to the sweetheart of a young soldier, who naturally ran him through. But it seems there is some cursed law against killing guardsmen, and the boy and his girl fled away. It was bruited about that I was seen with them, and so today I was haled into court, and a judge asked me where the lad had gone. I replied that since he was a friend of mine, I could not betray him. Then the court waxed wrath, and the judge talked a great deal about my duty to the state, and society, and other things I did not understand, and bade me tell where my friend had flown. By this time I was becoming wrathful myself, for I had explained my position.
"But I choked my ire and held my peace, and the judge squalled that I had shown contempt for the court, and that I should be hurled into a dungeon to rot until I betrayed my friend. So then, seeing they were all mad, I drew my sword and cleft the judge's skull; then I cut my way out of the court, and seeing the high constable's stallion tied near by, I rode for the wharfs, where I thought to find a ship bound for foreign parts."
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JacktheRabbit
Explorer
Excellent example. As a rule it seems that Conan always disdains the lawful course in favor of the right choice. Your example fits perfect. It might be illegal in the town he is in but no one would argue that killing someone who is attempting to rape a woman is the wrong action.
Er... Some people would surely at least argue that it should not be the *first* response? Y'know, those bleeding heart Neutral Good guys?
Gentlegamer
Adventurer
Er... Some people would surely at least argue that it should not be the *first* response? Y'know, those bleeding heart Neutral Good guys?
It should be noted that it wasn't Conan who killed the soldier. He just wouldn't rat out the young man who fled and refused to be thrown into the dungeon until he betrayed his friend. Obviously, only madmen would punish such silence with imprisonment.
To really get Conan'a morality, you need to look at the morality of 1932.
Conan is a PULP hero, all pulp heroes are Neutral, it was the America at the time of their creation. IF the became involved with something they sided on the right and just (Good). Now, you also have to think about the times Conan was created, it was a male world.
Conan is a PULP hero, all pulp heroes are Neutral, it was the America at the time of their creation. IF the became involved with something they sided on the right and just (Good). Now, you also have to think about the times Conan was created, it was a male world.
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