I wanted to add, it's not just about challenging the player. Everything I've said also applies to the character.
Of course.
I wanted to add, it's not just about challenging the player. Everything I've said also applies to the character.
I honestly would even struggle to classify an in-combat attack against a PC or NPC as a challenge for them. The combat itself may be a challenge both for the player and the character. But a single attack from that combat is really just a piece of the overall challenge that's occurring
The challenge that comes from combat is determining what resources to use when, or whether you should save some for later in the day. Those are the combat challenges a player and a character face. (I say the character - presuming you believe a character is at least somewhat aware how much gas he has left in his tank for the rest of the day)
I wanted to add, it's not just about challenging the player. Everything I've said also applies to the character.
The character is really just a sheet of paper. It's the player inhabiting the idea of the character that gives it life. That's why I don't understand this idea that you can challenge the character socially, without challenging the player. When @Umbran said that I was switching the challenge from the character to the player, I had a vision of Leslie Nielson in an interrogation room with a character sheet sitting on a chair, demanding that it confess. After a few minutes he turns to Nordberg and says, "I never thought it would be so hard to challenge a character."
You cannot challenge a character without simultaneously challenging the player.
A challenge where the DM takes control and informs the player that his PC's heart warms is no less a challenge to the player than what we are describing. It's just a different sort of challenge.
I think there is a difference between challenging the player and challenging the character. I think it needs explored whether such you can ever challenge the character without challenging the player.
I don't view the character as a character sheet. IMO They exist in the shared fictional world that we have created. They can be challenged in that world the same way I can be challenged in this one.
The more I think about that the more I think that is not a challenge at all.
@Maxperson
You said: "You cannot challenge a character without simultaneously challenging the player. "
Fog of war style challenges will challenge both the character and the player. These are the challenges I propose as the most fun.
I believe there also contests like a game of basketball, a game of athletic ability and skill, that is very challenging (aka difficult to win) provided the opposing team is about equal to you. A game of basketball is typically going to need to be resolved purely by mechanical randomization in an RPG. In this instance your character can be challenged while the player is not. That's not a particualarly interesting or fun challenge for the player but I think it's probably best to classify this as a challenge.
I still don't think a single sword swing or single basketball shot should be called a challenge though.
I said that in the context of the social challenge, though. Socially, I don't believe it is possible.
That depends. If the PC is going to take a shot and the NPC goes for a steal or block, then it would be an opposed challenge in my opinion. You could term it a mini-challenge if you want, but it's still a contest.