D&D 5E Detect Thoughts spell doubt: can I concentrate on the target without going deeper into its mind?

Hi folks, I've a great doubt about the spell called "Detect Thoughts" (link: https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Detect Thoughts#h-Detect Thoughts).

My doubt was born reading this piece of text: "You initially learn the surface thoughts of the creature - what is most on its mind in that moment. As an action, you can either shift your attention to another creature's thoughts or attempt to probe deeper into the same creature's mind."

At start I only learn the surface thoughts of a creature, ok, but on subsequent turns I must use my action to "attempt to probe deeper" on the same creature if I only want to stay on him and continue to ask my questions (without letting him find me inside his mind)?

In other words... During an interrogation with one creature, can I concentrate my attention on reading it subsequent thoughts without going deeper into his mind (and so without being discovered by it)?

My interpretation (and how I run it as a DM) is that the reason you either have to move to another creature or probe deeper is that the surface level thoughts will not change round to round. "Surface level thoughts" to me would be like "defiance" or "agony" or "fear" or "amused". To me its like a always-truthful successful Insight check and once you have the information about their top-level state, that's how it remains. Anything specific and actual thought-processing is below the surface.

So if you actually want to "read their mind" to get at actual information or actual thoughts from the person, you have to read their mind by probing deeper. If the spell wanted you to get "real" information from the person from the beginning, it would have made the saving throw requirement happen upon casting. That tells me "surface level thoughts" are just basic empathic stuff and nothing specific that would be gained from multi-round study (which is why you can also use the spell as a "Detect Thinking Creatures" spell, you're just glazing over the surface and seeing "Yep, angry person there-- scared person there-- another angry person over there, etc. etc..)

I’d let you stay on the same creature without probing deeper. You won’t gain any additional knowledge. Unless something significant changes:

Prisoner tied to a chair: scared, confused, hungry
Prisoner released: elated, relieved, hungry

It says as an Action you may either X or Y. It doesn't say you must take that action. If used during interrogation, you'll pick up new surface thoughts as they arise. It's mostly useful if the interrogator has useful questions that will bring up thoughts the target wants to hide, rather than random stuff.

Thank you all for the answers!

DEFCON 1 said:

My interpretation (and how I run it as a DM) is that the reason you either have to move to another creature or probe deeper is that the surface level thoughts will not change round to round. "Surface level thoughts" to me would be like "defiance" or "agony" or "fear" or "amused". To me its like a always-truthful successful Insight check and once you have the information about their top-level state, that's how it remains. Anything specific and actual thought-processing is below the surface.

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What does it mean for you the part: "Questions verbally directed at the target creature naturally shape the course of its thoughts, so this spell is particularly effective as part of an interrogation"?

Example: during an interrogation with one creature, if I concentrate my attention on reading its surface thoughts on subsequent rounds without going deeper into his mind (and so without being discovered by it), can I sense/read/feel if my different questions make the target from quiet to worried?

I’d allow this to be an automatic successful insight check. So you direct questions about various things and you might have various mundane emotions register. Maybe your prisoner is scared and his main thought is escaping. Then you ask a bunch of questions and, suddenly one question triggers him to be alarmed and panicked. He covers his emotions well with a deception check, but the spell ferrets out the reaction.

Now you have a basis to probe deeper using a line of questions that caused him to react. Asking questions while probing will reveal more specific thoughts on the subject if he fails his save.

deryn said:

Thank you all for the answers!



What does it mean for you the part: "Questions verbally directed at the target creature naturally shape the course of its thoughts, so this spell is particularly effective as part of an interrogation"?

Example: during an interrogation with one creature, if I concentrate my attention on reading its surface thoughts on subsequent rounds without going deeper into his mind (and so without being discovered by it), can I sense/read/feel if my different questions make the target from quiet to worried?

Click to expand...

As that paragraph appears after the entire section regarding probing deeper and the target making saving throws and you gaining insight into its reasoning and it trying to resist via INT check contests... I attribute that paragraph to the "probe deeper" part. That's the only way the caster can remain "on" one person round after round. You can't stay on a person's surface thoughts continuously... after the first round of surface thoughts, the next round you have to probe deeper. Or if you don't want to probe deeper, you either move to another person or you end the spell.

DEFCON 1 said:

That's the only way the caster can remain "on" one person round after round. You can't stay on a person's surface thoughts continuously... after the first round of surface thoughts, the next round you have to probe deeper. Or if you don't want to probe deeper, you either move to another person or you end the spell.

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I don't really agree with this interpretation. My interpretation is closer [MENTION=6775477]Shiroiken[/MENTION] s' interpretation. The exact quote is,

"As an action, you CAN either shift your attention to another creature's thoughts or attempt to probe further."

Nothing in the text says you "MUST USE YOUR ACTION" to shift your attention...

So, I interpret it this way: You can read surface thoughts...and choose not to use any action at all and just stay on one person...

If you so choose, you may use an action to do something different. The spell stipulates what That action can do: change target or probe deeper.

I'm not saying DEFCON is wrong. I just read it differently. Your table has to decide how to play it.

Edit:
And wording aside, my reasoning for not forcing someone to have to move it is this: If you are forced to move it, a player is just going to keep moving it to and fro between the target subject and another random person, perhaps even an ally. So, for an interrogation which is measured in minutes (or hours)and not 'rounds', it's kind of a moot point whether you spend a 6 second action to move it one place and back again.

TaranTheWanderer said:

I don't really agree with this interpretation. My interpretation is closer [MENTION=6775477]Shiroiken[/MENTION] s' interpretation. The exact quote is,

"As an action, you CAN either shift your attention to another creature's thoughts or attempt to probe further."

Nothing in the text says you "MUST USE YOUR ACTION" to shift your attention...

So, I interpret it this way: You can read surface thoughts...and choose not to use any action at all and just stay on one person...

If you so choose, you may use an action to do something different. The spell stipulates what That action can do: change target or probe deeper.

I'm not saying DEFCON is wrong. I just read it differently. Your table has to decide how to play it.

Edit:
And wording aside, my reasoning for not forcing someone to have to move it is this: If you are forced to move it, a player is just going to keep moving it to and fro between the target subject and another random person, perhaps even an ally. So, for an interrogation which is measured in minutes (or hours)and not 'rounds', it's kind of a moot point whether you spend a 6 second action to move it one place and back again.

Click to expand...

If you are a DM who actually gives different "surface thoughts" each round, then sure, I can understand your POV.

For me though, as I said above... I don't run surface thoughts that way. Surface thoughts do not change round to round. They have an overriding attitude and that's what gets detected when you aren't letting the person know you are doing it or letting them make a saving throw to defend against it.

That's the big thing for me. If you are trying to avoid being detected and the person has no defense against your detection... you're just not going to get very much detail.

Remember, there is already another 2nd level spell called 'Zone of Truth' which does what it appears as though folks are wanting 'Detect Thoughts' to do when running an interrogation scene-- determine whether the person is telling the truth. From what I'm gathering, the idea they are hoping for is that during the interrogation scene and by scanning surface thoughts round after round, they'd get pings like "That question made the person nervous! They know something!" Or "That person walled themselves off when they answered that question... they're probably lying."

If that is what you are trying to do with Detect Thoughts... use it as a lie detector test... then I absolutely believe you should HAVE to "probe deeper". The person not only needs to know you are probing inside their mind to get information, but that they should have a chance to center themselves and not let you do it (via a saving throw). After all... 'Zone of Truth' is already our lie detector spell, and that one not only requires a saving throw for it to even work at all, but the person under its influence is under no obligation to actually talk to you (when if they did, they would have to tell the truth.)

To use the surface level 'Detect Thoughts' to figure out if someone is lying where the target doesn't know you are doing it and they have no way to defend themselves... that's a big no-no for me. We have 'Zone of Truth' in the game already for a reason.