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lowkey13
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Designing Adventures with Lethality in Mind (Kobayashi Maru)- the Poll!
The Crimson Binome
Hero
The most important factor, to me, is the certainty with which an unwinnable fight can be escaped. If a monster just comes out of nowhere, and ambush webs the party before they can do anything, then that's a bad lethal encounter. If the party is walking along, and an ancient dragon appears a couple of miles off but they could probably engage it if they tried, then that's the opposite extreme.
There's a line, somewhere in the middle, which separates the reasonable lethal encounters from the unreasonable wins. It's hard to describe the exact location of that line. If the players can't make a reasonable estimate of how hard an encounter should be, because you're fighting a medium fey or a large fiend or something, then that probably crosses the line.
There's a line, somewhere in the middle, which separates the reasonable lethal encounters from the unreasonable wins. It's hard to describe the exact location of that line. If the players can't make a reasonable estimate of how hard an encounter should be, because you're fighting a medium fey or a large fiend or something, then that probably crosses the line.
I'm not normally a fan of wandering monsters, because random combat tends to take away from the story. If a wandering monster setup is used in an adventure, I roll ahead of time, so I can plan the encounter appropriately, preventing it from bogging down the adventure. However, I really like to use them when the players choose to rest in a dangerous location to keep the players on their toes. If a combat is lethal, wandering or not, then it's lethal. I don't pull my punches, even if it means a TPK.
Ratskinner
Adventurer
I don't think the PCs should be confident that they can beat every encounter, but I don't really design them with the thought in mind "Hah! This should kill them." I'm more apt to think "It should be interesting to see how they deal with this."
I have only been a part of one TPK that I can recall as player, and that was because the DM had ignored the agreed-upon rules for a rotating DM campaign in 3e. (There were probably others from 1e days, but 1st level TPKs didn't count back then, IMO.)
I have only presided over a few TPKs as a DM. The most recent was a rather odd one, where all four party members trotted into a room with a psychic/magical trap, that they knew about....and all failed their Wisdom saves, even the ones with re-rolls and re-tries and advantage, etc. The weird part is that they went in one at a time, and after watching all his comrades succumb to the trap....the cleric just hopped right in behind them... Go figure. Usually, the TPKs come after the party has completely ignored my hints, warnings, and advice or just simply throws caution to the wind against even their previous experience in the campaign.
As others have noted, TPKs seem very random to me. I've never had one happen at an intentionally dramatically climactic moment. Its an odd way to end a campaign.
I have only been a part of one TPK that I can recall as player, and that was because the DM had ignored the agreed-upon rules for a rotating DM campaign in 3e. (There were probably others from 1e days, but 1st level TPKs didn't count back then, IMO.)
I have only presided over a few TPKs as a DM. The most recent was a rather odd one, where all four party members trotted into a room with a psychic/magical trap, that they knew about....and all failed their Wisdom saves, even the ones with re-rolls and re-tries and advantage, etc. The weird part is that they went in one at a time, and after watching all his comrades succumb to the trap....the cleric just hopped right in behind them... Go figure. Usually, the TPKs come after the party has completely ignored my hints, warnings, and advice or just simply throws caution to the wind against even their previous experience in the campaign.
As others have noted, TPKs seem very random to me. I've never had one happen at an intentionally dramatically climactic moment. Its an odd way to end a campaign.
Oofta
Legend
I don't use truly random encounters. I may have a list of monsters that would likely inhabit areas the PCs might logically go, but possibly outside of generating ideas I've never liked using the random tables. If the party is walking along a peaceful country and suddenly an ancient red dragon appears, why haven't there been rumors? Where did the dragon come from? Is it going to stick around and claim the region the PCs worked so hard to liberate from the hands of the evil pretender to the throne?
Especially at higher levels, monsters with high enough CR to threaten a party aren't just wandering around aimlessly. There may well be opponents the party cannot defeat but they should know that ahead of time and avoid them or have an escape route, or routes.
Unless of course it's the Perfectly Penitent Paladins of Pelor Party. Because they're so awesome they can just smile and the bad guy's heads explode.
Especially at higher levels, monsters with high enough CR to threaten a party aren't just wandering around aimlessly. There may well be opponents the party cannot defeat but they should know that ahead of time and avoid them or have an escape route, or routes.
Unless of course it's the Perfectly Penitent Paladins of Pelor Party. Because they're so awesome they can just smile and the bad guy's heads explode.
Rod Staffwand
aka Ermlaspur Flormbator
As a DM, I look at over-powered enemy encounters the same way I do 1000 foot cliffs: both exist in the world and both can be lethal to the unwary or the reckless. It's not up to me to tell players not to have their PCs jump off those cliffs or engage in those encounters.
It is up to me to not force the party into unwinnable encounters or to jump off those cliffs. It is up to me to make sure viable alternatives exist and to give the party some chance to escape a TPK should misfortune or mistakes make one imminent--after I've extracted a pound of flesh, of course.
A dragon that shows up on an encounter table doesn't necessarily need to swoop down and breath fire on a 1st level party. Maybe give them a chance to dart under some trees. Maybe it tries to extort some magic items as tribute. Maybe it's asleep in a field after having eaten an elephant. Maybe it'll just circle the party for a while to see what they're up to. There are plenty of ways to employ a high-CR monster in an encounter where direct combat isn't the primary danger.
It is up to me to not force the party into unwinnable encounters or to jump off those cliffs. It is up to me to make sure viable alternatives exist and to give the party some chance to escape a TPK should misfortune or mistakes make one imminent--after I've extracted a pound of flesh, of course.
A dragon that shows up on an encounter table doesn't necessarily need to swoop down and breath fire on a 1st level party. Maybe give them a chance to dart under some trees. Maybe it tries to extort some magic items as tribute. Maybe it's asleep in a field after having eaten an elephant. Maybe it'll just circle the party for a while to see what they're up to. There are plenty of ways to employ a high-CR monster in an encounter where direct combat isn't the primary danger.
MarkB
Legend
Bear in mind that the Kobayashi Maru isn't just an encounter that Starfleet designed which nobody could think of a way of winning. It's an encounter which adapts dynamically to whichever tactics the cadets employ in order to remain unwinnable. That's an easy enough task to pull off as a DM, if it happens to float your boat.
I've run campaigns that had high levels of lethality, and high turnover of PCs. I ultimately found them unsatisfying, if for no other reason than that cycling out characters at a high rate breaks up the party's shared narrative, and makes characters feel like shallow stand-ins which players don't feel motivated to invest in emotionally.
Gradine
The Elephant in the Room (she/her)
As was pointed out above, it's a personal preference sort of thing. At my tables with my players, this kind of encounter would be deeply, deeply unsatisfying. Even if I were to use random encounters (which I would only do sparingly and in very specific circumstances), the main purpose of random encounters is to tax the party's resources, not kill them outright. That's the biggest anti-climax I could possibly imagine.
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