D&D 5E Points of Light setting and current cross-over strategy: Round peg in the square hole.

Parmandur

Book-Friend
To build upon that, Castle Spulzeer firmly attaches the Realms to Ravenloft, and Ravenloft itself is connected to most of the other worlds that exist in official D&D settings in official manner.

So even before 5th edition provided us Mordenkainen being friends with Elminster in an official product, the worlds of Oerth and Toril were clearly connected in an official capacity.


Even with my limited exposure, that's all over the 1E/2E products I've seen. They cooled that in 3E, and tried to disappear it entirely in 4E, but the 5E approach just seems to be going to an old Gygax/Greenwood approach to multiverse?

Greenwood is fully on board with the current direction, just based in his Twitter account: I'll take his opinion and official canon over fanon any day.
 

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Staffan

Legend
3: I have all FR products from 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th edition. None of the official products mention anything about Oerth, Krynn, Darksun, or Mystara. If these worlds co-existed in cannon then we would see some evidence in 30+ years of gaming material. The only thing we have is an older Dragon mag article about Elminster having a get together with Mord and Dalamar and that wasn't even written by Ed Greenwood.
Incorrect. Forgotten Realms Adventures (the 1e to 2e transition book) included the spell Khelben's warding whip, which is specifically designed to counter the various Bigby's ______ hand spells, and the description mentions that apperently the two have run into one another on less-than-friendly terms, and that Khelben thinks Bigby is being obnoxious with his one gimmick. The book also mentions "it is known that Mordenkainen and Vangerdahast both competed magically for the hand of a young extra-planar beauty (both lost, by the way)."

Also, For Duty and Deity (an adventure where the PCs are supposed to rescue Waukeen from her imprisonment at Graz'zt's hands) mentions that Waukeen's domain on the Outlands is the Marketplace Eternal, which she shares with Shinare of Krynn, Zilchus of Oerth, and Sera of Aebrynis (Birthright).

You also have Count Gamalon Idogyr, Court Sage of Tethyr. He spent 30-some years on the Rock of Bral before returning to his native Tethyr. Since you have the Rock of Bral connected to the official Realms, you also connect the wider Spelljammer universe to it, including places like Oerth and Krynn.
 

AaronOfBarbaria

Adventurer
Thanks for those references [MENTION=907]Staffan[/MENTION], I couldn't remember where I had seen them and was worried I might have made them up in my own campaigns (which have always embraced the multi-verse approach).
 

Oh, I know I shouldn't feed the troll but...

1: That little part near the end there was what I've dubbed through the years as "homebrew disclaimer". If you have been around D&D products long enough you will know that they like to remind people that it's okay to add things to your home games. Some people feel like they need to stick with the cannon and sometimes they liked to remind us that it is okay to use whatever you want. Unfortunately this is not cannon. It was also a small form of advertising of the other D&D worlds. They were letting people know that using more than one world is okay.
Quoting Ed Greenwood's introduction 1987 dark grey boxed set, word-for-word:
The "Forgotten Realms" derive their name from the fictitious fact upon which play in my campaign is based: that a multiverse exists, of countless parallel co-existing Prime Material Planes (including the world presented herein, our own modern "Earth", and any other fantasy settings a DM may wish to incorporate in play), all related to the Known Planes of Existance presented in the AD&D system.

It seems pretty damn clear that Ed was happy setting the Realms in the existing D&D cosmology and was pro-multiverse.

2: Co-existing primes are still prime material planes that exist with in the Forgotten Realms sphere. Oerth (Greyhawk) doesn't exist with in the same sphere is not an alternate prime material plane. Something came up years ago about this when a question was asked to Ed Greenwood about Lolth. They asked if the Lolth on Oerth had any connection with the Lolth in Forgotten Realms. The response to that was no. It was said they are completely separate entities that had nothing to do with each other. Now if these worlds co-existed why wouldn't there be one Lolth who has extended her power across these alternate worlds?
Citation please

3: I have all FR products from 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th edition. None of the official products mention anything about Oerth, Krynn, Darksun, or Mystara. If these worlds co-existed in cannon then we would see some evidence in 30+ years of gaming material.
Then you would have 1993's Code of the Harpers, which mentions Oerth, and is written by one Ed of the Green Wood.

Plus there are a couple crossover adventures. Castle Spulzeer, from 1997 starts in the Realms and then continues in Ravenloft in The Forgotten Terror. AndFor Duty & Deity crosses over with Tales from the Infinite Staircase.

This is without getting into Spelljammer which pretty explicitly mentions being able to travel between the Realms and Oerth and Krynn.

The only thing we have is an older Dragon mag article about Elminster having a get together with Mord and Dalamar and that wasn't even written by Ed Greenwood.
The first of these would be Magic in the evening, written in Dragon #185 from 1992 by... Ed Greenwood.

You'll find others in 188, 196, 200, 211, 238, 242, and 246. To name a few. All canon, like everything else Ed has written for the Realms.

4: When the Forgotten Realms was created there was no such things as Oerth or any other published D&D world, D&D wasn't even invented yet.
Nope. Neither did Drizzt. But it'd be silly to argue he isn't part of the Realms.

The Realms, as published by TSR, is not the same Realms as that Ed Greenwood used as a setting for his stories. Or likely even uses as the setting for his homegames. It's a variation/ derivative.

You are basing your argument off of a homebrew disclaimer that is found in many books where it just reminds you that it's okay to add stuff outside the cannon into your home games. It sounds a little like you might be a bit of a Wiz fan and are trying to justify their crossover strategy by making it seem like the Realms has always been built around these other published D&D worlds when it hasn't.
"Wiz fan"?? "Their crossover strategy"??
The D&D multiverse is a TSR thing that predates the founding of Wizards of the Coast.
 

dave2008

Legend
They would have been better off just building on the Points of Light setting.

No, maybe you would have been better off, but it is pretty clear that their plan is working very well for them. I don't think they would have been better off using PoL.

To be clear, PoL is the only D&D setting I ever got invested in over my 30 years of playing, and I don't think it would be a good thing for WotC to use that setting as their starting point.
 

dave2008

Legend
Wow [MENTION=37579]Jester David[/MENTION] and [MENTION=907]Staffan[/MENTION] that is one of the best troll beat downs by evidence I have ever seen. The question is, did you remember to use fire?

Now I guess we will see what kind of person [MENTION=6776548]Corpsetaker[/MENTION] is in how he/she responds to your evidence.
 

Patrick McGill

First Post
I'm not sure I can find where it is said that the new book of classics will put these classics in Forgotten Realms. Did they announce that these versions of the adventures/dungeons will all be transplanted into FR? I thought it was going to be simply the modules updated to 5e rules with swanky new art and maps.
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
I'm not sure I can find where it is said that the new book of classics will put these classics in Forgotten Realms. Did they announce that these versions of the adventures/dungeons will all be transplanted into FR? I thought it was going to be simply the modules updated to 5e rules with swanky new art and maps.


They have said that the book will give guidelines on how to use them in FR, Greyhawk, Dragonlance and Eberron at least.
 

I'm not sure I can find where it is said that the new book of classics will put these classics in Forgotten Realms. Did they announce that these versions of the adventures/dungeons will all be transplanted into FR? I thought it was going to be simply the modules updated to 5e rules with swanky new art and maps.

It was implied that they would not be changing settings, and that the Yawning Portal was serving as a meeting place for planar travellers.

From the Forbes article:

We thought to ourselves these adventures were originally placed in a variety of different settings in D&D's history. Some were in Greyhawk, some weren't really attached to a setting, some were in the Realms. We thought if there was any place where you could go to hear stories of these dungeons, it would be the Yawning Portal in Waterdeep in the Forgotten Realms. The idea is that while obviously most people who go to the Yawning Portal are natives of the Forgotten Realms, there are still sometimes either playing the travelers, or adventurers who've been to other worlds. That's where powerful adventurers congregate and talk.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/toddken...portal-is-games-greatest-hits/2/#38fb91165947

(So the claim that the PoL setting would be better for Tales from the Yawning Portal is a little spurious, as there's not really an inn of the same renown. Although the World Serpent Inn would be soooo much better. I imagine that was either more of a deep cut, or harder to trademark.)
 

dave2008

Legend
And the elemental princes didn't exist, they were replaced by the godlike Primordials.

Sorry to be that guy - but the elemental princes did exist in 4e. Imix and Ogremoch were in the MM3 and Olyhydra and Yan-C-Bin were in dragon or dungeon. I think Cryonax was eventually in dragon or dungeon as well, but I'm not sure.
 

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