D&D 1E Revised and rebalanced dragons for 1e AD&D

Cleon said:

My disagreement is the Huge dragon's "fearsome" breath weapon is further unshackled from their HD/hp.

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Oh, that. That's on purpose. Thanks for the nice table showing the range of breath weapons available to 10HD dragons. It's very useful, but I'm pretty much happy with it.

In a nutshell, the problem you are going to hit if you switch to making breath weapon depend on HD, is that you probably will need to convert magic resistance, AC, and possibly even the special abilities to depend on HD as well. Extend your table of 10HD dragons out to cover these things as well, and you'll see what I mean.

What your table serves to demonstrate is that amongst dragons of equal size, it is the older dragon that tends to be the more puissant and dangerous. And I'm completely OK with that. That is what I want. I think it makes for a good game, so that even a party that has defeated an adult red, still must respect even a 'lowly' white wyrm despite it being a similar size beast. Yes, it makes for a more complex hierarchy compared to the simple model of this race of dragons is strictly better than this one, which is better than this one, etc. but I'm OK with that complexity. I think it makes for a better deeper game with a richer variety of challenges. You can have slightly smaller dragons with tougher defenses and a more dangerous breath, and larger dragons with more potent physical attacks but weaker defenses and slightly less fearsome breath. Switching everything to HD means you might as well have one dragon entry with dragons differing only by the energy type of their breath weapon.

I am still somewhat intrigued with the idea of a adding a bonus amount of damage to the breath weapon based on HD, and like dave2008, thought that was your best idea. In particular, I very much liked the numbers it was producing for the youngest sorts of dragons (where a small bump for the larger members of the same age category makes some sense). But I haven't worked out exactly what all the implications of that are or whether I can make the math work and whether even if I could it would be worth the small increase in complexity. I may have to break out another excel worksheet and play with it.

I'd rather the age categories be used to influence the saving throws instead of the size. Maybe each age above category 6 has a cumulative –1 on the save, so the PCs must save against a Great Wyrm's breath weapon at –4.

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And this desire is based on what?

dave2008 said:

Well, one reason [MENTION=4937]Celebrim[/MENTION] is doing that is that the cloud attack covers a greater area, so in theory it does more damage across the group. Thus, the total damage is balanced. However, I doubt that really has much of factor in play. I know if my group is planning to take on a dragon (or they encounter one) the make sure to spread out. You are unlikely to catch more than 2 in a cone or cloud. The cloud is theoretically more damage, but I don't think it is practically (to PCs anyway - henchmen is a different story)

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Yes, that's been my experience in my game. A breath weapon or similar attack has tended to catch two or three PCs regardless of whether it was a line or cone. Of course, a lot of sessions I've run have only had two or three players. In wide areas the potential targets spread out so it's hard to get more than a few, either due to the shorter range of a cone or the difficulty lining up more than two of them. Most of the occasions when most or all of a party got hit was when they were in restricted spaces like corridors or small caves where there wasn't anywhere to get out of the area of effect.

Celebrim said:

Oh, that. That's on purpose. Thanks for the nice table showing the range of breath weapons available to 10HD dragons. It's very useful, but I'm pretty much happy with it.

In a nutshell, the problem you are going to hit if you switch to making breath weapon depend on HD, is that you probably will need to convert magic resistance, AC, and possibly even the special abilities to depend on HD as well. Extend your table of 10HD dragons out to cover these things as well, and you'll see what I mean.

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I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree them. I'm happy to have older dragons of the same HD and HP do more damage than younger ones, just not as much more as in this version.

Celebrim said:

What your table serves to demonstrate is that amongst dragons of equal size, it is the older dragon that tends to be the more puissant and dangerous. And I'm completely OK with that. That is what I want. I think it makes for a good game, so that even a party that has defeated an adult red, still must respect even a 'lowly' white wyrm despite it being a similar size beast. Yes, it makes for a more complex hierarchy compared to the simple model of this race of dragons is strictly better than this one, which is better than this one, etc. but I'm OK with that complexity. I think it makes for a better deeper game with a richer variety of challenges. You can have slightly smaller dragons with tougher defenses and a more dangerous breath, and larger dragons with more potent physical attacks but weaker defenses and slightly less fearsome breath. Switching everything to HD means you might as well have one dragon entry with dragons differing only by the energy type of their breath weapon.

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Well in principle I would have no objection to a "Unified Dragon Table", although I'd add way more differentiation options than breath weapon type (Like Spellcasting, Flight, Natural Weapon Options, Venom, Corrosive/Poisonous Blood, etc.).

There are way too many "species" of dragon in AD&D. It' might have been better to have a single race of "Dragons" that was mutable enough to come in many different forms.

Come to think of it, the original OD&D version was somewhat like that, with a single Dragons entry covering "six varieties of Dragons".

Celebrim said:

I am still somewhat intrigued with the idea of a adding a bonus amount of damage to the breath weapon based on HD, and like dave2008, thought that was your best idea. In particular, I very much liked the numbers it was producing for the youngest sorts of dragons (where a small bump for the larger members of the same age category makes some sense). But I haven't worked out exactly what all the implications of that are or whether I can make the math work and whether even if I could it would be worth the small increase in complexity. I may have to break out another excel worksheet and play with it.

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Glad you like that idea.

It might require dropping the +1/dice damage bonus for Huge Dragons to avoid an excessive fixed-point boost.

Actually that reminds me, I'm looking askance at the Small Dragons doing the same breath weapon damage as the normal sized ones. I'd have been more inclined to reduce it slightly. Maybe knock off a single dice or, if it's a hatchling, reduce the dice size by one (i.e. an Adult Small White does 4d6 instead of 4d8 and a Hatchling Small White 1d4).

That feels a bit feeble though.

Celebrim said:

And this desire is based on what?

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Wanting Great Wyrms to have breath weapons that are harder to save against than a Hatchling's, obviously.

Celebrim said:

What your table serves to demonstrate is that amongst dragons of equal size, it is the older dragon that tends to be the more puissant and dangerous. And I'm completely OK with that. That is what I want. I think it makes for a good game, so that even a party that has defeated an adult red, still must respect even a 'lowly' white wyrm despite it being a similar size beast. Yes, it makes for a more complex hierarchy compared to the simple model of this race of dragons is strictly better than this one, which is better than this one, etc. but I'm OK with that complexity. I think it makes for a better deeper game with a richer variety of challenges. You can have slightly smaller dragons with tougher defenses and a more dangerous breath, and larger dragons with more potent physical attacks but weaker defenses and slightly less fearsome breath. Switching everything to HD means you might as well have one dragon entry with dragons differing only by the energy type of their breath weapon.

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A lot of this boils down to whether a particular Dragon Ability is linked to Age Category or Hit Dice (or Both!) and it's not surprising that opinions can vary on that.

For example, to me it seems more "intuitive" for a Dragon's Intelligence and Spellcasting abilities be linked to Age rather than Hit Dice since I see little reason a Huge dragon of a particular hue should be smarter and more arcanely puissant than its normal-size kin (or a Small one less so). That would obviously require a "Int/CL" adjustment for each colour dragon like the current Green Dragon has but it is more flattering to my sense of verisimilitude.

Going back to the problem I'm having with the Small/Normal/Huge dragons, one possible fix is to have "Huge" dragons use a larger Hit Dice size than regular sized ones.

If a Huge Adult Black had, say HD of 8d10+40 instead of 8d8+40 the extra +1 damage per die its breath weapon gets wouldn't bother me as much.

Come to think of it, you could just apply the same change to the breath weapon as well since a d10/age has the same average as d8+1/age.

Cleon said:

Yes, that's been my experience in my game. A breath weapon or similar attack has tended to catch two or three PCs regardless of whether it was a line or cone. Of course, a lot of sessions I've run have only had two or three players. In wide areas the potential targets spread out so it's hard to get more than a few, either due to the shorter range of a cone or the difficulty lining up more than two of them. Most of the occasions when most or all of a party got hit was when they were in restricted spaces like corridors or small caves where there wasn't anywhere to get out of the area of effect.

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I think in general that's correct outside of the first round. In the first round, the party is for likely good reasons going to be in some sort of marching order and close formation. Seeing a dragon, as much as possible they are going to want to spread out enough to avoid the whole party getting caught in a breath weapon, which against any breath weapon but that of a green you can probably manage. A green on the other hand will target an adjacent 'square' and let the cloud billow all around it since it doesn't mind being in its own 'detonation'.

You mention playing with just 2-3 players. I have 6 players in my current group (and turned some away at one point), and in high school we often had 8 or more players. I recognize that 2-3 players is very typical, but it's not the assumption that 1e AD&D is built around. For example, I challenged the adult black dragon to a fight against 6 6th level PC's, and that will probably be a tense fight if the DM uses decent tactics to counter however the player tries to optimize the party. And it's right in the expectation of how AD&D is played, with 6th level characters going after a level VI monster (presumably on roughly the 6th level of the dungeon). But obviously 3 characters are probably screwed, and considering a level VI monster can show up as early as 4th level, obviously 3 level 4's are not meant to go up against a level VI at all.

The notion of restricted spaces like corridors and caves is also built into the assumptions of 1e AD&D. The assumption is that often the party will have to approach the dragon in a narrow corridor leading to the dragon's lair, and the dragon will be able to employ its breath weapon to great effect in those confines. Obviously, in situations where the terrain favors the party, they have an advantage, but with a dragon that's not always clear. A party of 6 fighters in full plate, double specialized in the two-handed sword, slice and dice a level VI dragon in close quarters, but encounter hardship if they face the dragon on an open plain with a clear sky.

Wanting Great Wyrms to have breath weapons that are harder to save against than a Hatchling's, obviously.

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3e went down that path and on the whole the experiment was a failure. In 1e with its fixed saving throws, most of the time there is simply no need for it. You are double dipping to both increase the cost of failing a saving throw and also increasing the odds of failing the saving throw. That's the problem that 3e designs ran into - the more it mattered if you failed a save, the harder it was to make the saving throw. I mean, I've actually moved 3e quite strongly away from that design choice as a result of play experience, and 3e at least has much easier access to increasing bonuses to the saving throws. Why would I want to import into 1e something that I know from experience harms play?

Cleon said:

Going back to the problem I'm having with the Small/Normal/Huge dragons, one possible fix is to have "Huge" dragons use a larger Hit Dice size than regular sized ones.

If a Huge Adult Black had, say HD of 8d10+40 instead of 8d8+40 the extra +1 damage per die its breath weapon gets wouldn't bother me as much.

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I don't know quite what your scale is here, but a huge adult black is right now intended as the sort of thing you might face at 8th level. It presently does 5d8+5 damage, averaging ~14 damage on a save. Now, that won't threaten extreme cases like an 8th level dwarf fighter with 19 Con (88 hit points) or an 6th level Barbarian with 18 Con (87 hit points) but against a more realistically optimized party, 14 damage is a major blow and 28 damage is serious. A typical 8th level fighter might have more along the lines of 60 hit points, so each breath is knocking roughly 25-50% of his hit points off. A typical 9th level thief probably has along the lines of 41 hit points, so losing 14 or 28 is a bit of a problem. An 8th level M-U has more like 28 hit points, so failed save on average is putting them in death territory. None of that might matter except I'm not expecting this fight to be over in one round, but last say 4 rounds. So everyone is going to be coming out of a level appropriate encounter down like 30 hit points or more unless they tactics and system mastery the heck out of the fight. Throw that same dragon up against a 6th level party and you'll be lucky to not generate a few deaths.

Now, you are actually suggesting 8d10+40 damage as a breath weapon? Average damage of 62? Back to that 8th level party, everyone is dead or in death territory on a failed save. Everyone fails that saving throw vs Breath Weapons unless they roll between 15-17 (depending on class, ignoring the relatively rare saving throw bonus from a good ring of protection, high dex, or a magic shield) so say 2/3rds of the party is potentially dead round 1 and the remainder have lost half their hit points. Plus, depending on the situation, this dragon can attack with its claws in addition to its breath weapon. It's only lost its bite in this write up. They've got to generate 70+ damage against AC -3 and a 65% resistance to magical attack while trying to soak and deal with a breath that will almost certainly kill whomever the dragon nexts selects for the honor.

To 'fix' that mess, I've now got to suggest this is higher than level VIII monster. But, that means I'm edging back into the territory that I'm exactly trying to move out of, namely that a dragon only represents a threat to a party that would be expected to face it because of its out of scale breath weapon damage compared to its physical attacks, HD, hit points, and other defenses. And if we scale them all upward, we're just engaged in pointless power inflation where all the numbers get bigger just because some people are impressed by big numbers, like multiplying all the points on a pin ball machine by 100 or 1000 to make the scores seem more impressive.

steeldragons said:

I'm very much looking forward to your descriptive write ups on the metallics.

Really great (and huuuuuge amount of) work.

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The metallic write ups are nearing completion. I'm asking for feedback a bit early because I'm less happy with them than the chromatics, and in particular I think the Brass write up is inspired but I'm much less enthusiastic about the other ones.

A bit of background, I've never actually used a metallic dragon in game, and I've not really been happy with how metallics played out in settings where I was the player, or with any of the lore I'd seen built around them (mechanically or in its write up). I've just never seen the point of them - why do we need good dragons and what role would they have in a story where the PC's are protagonists? (I've often speculated that the good dragons were actually intended to be the oriental dragons in a lose way, before becoming their own thing when oriental dragons were considered more closely.) In fact, my lack of use for metallics has led me from time to time to think about officially establishing within my setting that they don't in fact exist. Indeed, the only metallic I'd ever considered in my setting is the rogue bronze that serves the Slaad Lord Ylorg, and while it is interesting that that creature may have a noble ulterior motive for doing so, it's such deep dark lore of my setting and so relatively unimportant that I didn't think it necessary worth including metallics in the setting.

So I'm probably not the best person to do the write up.

That said, the concept that I decided on using works I think brilliantly for the Brass dragon, to the extent that for the first time I'm actually trending in favor of 'metallic dragons actually exist in the world of Sartha'.

Big things:

1) I'm not nearly as happy with the innate power selections for most of the metallics as I am for the Chromatics and the Brass dragon. Any suggestions would be appreciated, though in 1e the possible spells that are core are pretty limited. The more I worked on them, the harder it was to capture the ideas. The Silver and Gold are particularly weak I think.
2) I don't like the 'Heal' power associated with the ancient Silver dragon in part because Heal is and was a broken spell (even with its 1 round casting time), and wonder if it should be made 'Heal Other' or changed to some other spell the captures the idea.
3) I'm not certain how much text to copy over from the chromatics write up. Have I copied enough to be clear?

Celebrim said:

The metallic write ups are nearing completion. I'm asking for feedback a bit early because I'm less happy with them than the chromatics, and in particular I think the Brass write up is inspired but I'm much less enthusiastic about the other ones.

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I really quite like them! I think the aromas (maybe I'd make them more an odor given off all around the dragon, or in their lairs/places they go vs. just, necessarily, their 'breath" smell) are a wonderful flavorful addition and the attributes you assign them (creativity, hope, energy & transformation, etc...) are ALL "inspired." Makign them something more than, and perfectly opposed to, if I might coin a phrase, the "elemental death machines" or pinnacle of destructive/corrupting powers of the chromatics. Creatures of higher ideals and civilized thought, which naturally helps explain their various levels of sociability and interest in watching, if not always interacting with, races and civilizations that might possess or grow from those ideals. I think the write ups, as are, are very good.

Celebrim said:

A bit of background, I've never actually used a metallic dragon in game, and I've not really been happy with how metallics played out in settings where I was the player, or with any of the lore I'd seen built around them (mechanically or in its write up). I've just never seen the point of them - why do we need good dragons and what role would they have in a story where the PC's are protagonists? (I've often speculated that the good dragons were actually intended to be the oriental dragons in a lose way, before becoming their own thing when oriental dragons were considered more closely.) In fact, my lack of use for metallics has led me from time to time to think about officially establishing within my setting that they don't in fact exist. Indeed, the only metallic I'd ever considered in my setting is the rogue bronze that serves the Slaad Lord Ylorg, and while it is interesting that that creature may have a noble ulterior motive for doing so, it's such deep dark lore of my setting and so relatively unimportant that I didn't think it necessary worth including metallics in the setting.

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Understandable and, I don't think, terribly singular. My own games and setting have barely used metallics either. They are exceptionally rare. For the most part, other than a handful (really) they have left the world/plane of the setting for other worlds/planes/pastures for who knows what -if any- reasons. I've made it a point in my lore to really make Golds, in particular, an extraplanar entities, so rare and amazing even among dragonkind they are hardly ever seen even by their own kind. Silvers, as you note are the most 'organized," I guess I'd say...moreso than social (which falls to coppers and their general jovial loquaciousness). Silvers and Bronzes are really the noes intereested in keeping an eye on things and making sure ancient powerful evils don't get out of hand or flights of chromatics don't decide to just "take over" everything. The Brass help them out a bit, something of guardians (insofar as they are stationed/assigned places to "watch") and messengers...draconic "scouts/rogues" as it were.

But for in game actual interaction with PCs -the rightful protagonists of any game- I think there's a Bronze NPC that has had some interactions...mostly used just as a font of knowledge...like a scaly library. And I think, once, I used a Copper...who was actually raiding/doing damage to things, as a plot point to get an adventure going...which I believe is from some old supplement, but I had it turn out it was actually ensorcelled by another dragon (green or black, I don't remember) to collect treasure for them...and obviously, give the copper dragon a bad rep and/or if it were slain in its errands all the better from the chromatics' pov.

Celebrim said:

So I'm probably not the best person to do the write up.

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As i said. I really enjoyed them. A little different than I would have done...and different than my setting's lore, naturally. But very thorough and I think enjoyable.

Celebrim said:

That said, the concept that I decided on using works I think brilliantly for the Brass dragon, to the extent that for the first time I'm actually trending in favor of 'metallic dragons actually exist in the world of Sartha'.

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Cool! Good.

Celebrim said:

Big things:

1) I'm not nearly as happy with the innate power selections for most of the metallics as I am for the Chromatics and the Brass dragon. Any suggestions would be appreciated, though in 1e the possible spells that are core are pretty limited. The more I worked on them, the harder it was to capture the ideas. The Silver and Gold are particularly weak I think.

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Ok, so...you like the Brass: "kindle hope and drive away darkness." They can: Remove Fear & Light (that's sunlight, to boot) each 1/day per age category; at ANCIENT: Cure Pestilence (as Cure Disease for 10 people/age category + additional effects) 1/day, 2/day @ wyrm, 3/day @ great wyrm.

Kindle Hope and drive away darkenss...so, like my game, they are guardians/watching over places or items, also messengers bringing hope and good news, driving away despair or darkness before them. They're the kinda "scout/herald."

Copper: "creativity & regeneration." I confess I was surprised, here, not to see illusionist spells. They can: Material & Mending, 1/day/age category; at ADULT: Create Food & Drink (for 10 people per HD[?] + @ Ancient gains benefit of Heroes Feast) 1/day; at ANCIENT: Regenerate (with pain? I dont' quite get), 1/day, 2/day @ wyrm, 3/day @ great wyrm.

I think here, I would take out the regenerate power. Leave the Create Food/Drink as an Adult ability that increases effectiveness into older ages...and instead of a specific Ancient/Wyrm/Great Wyrm power, make a second Adult power that extends effectiveness into Ancient/Wyrm/Great Wyrm. I'm kinda thinking, riffing off the Mending ability, I would make it Woodshape (well, "Warp Wood" in 1e) adding Stoneshape at Ancient and then increasing uses per day for wyrm/great wyrm, as normal.

The other direction to go, as I mentioned, would be illusion-based stuff. Give them, perhaps: Dancing Lights & Mending. Leave the Create Food/Drink (because that's just fun, and useful, and I very easily imagine any Copper would certainly LOVE to just "throw a party" if some friendly folks showed up. But then make the secondary Adult feature some illusion (Phantasmal Force, presumably, that has some increased effectiveness as you've done for the rest...since the Create Food upgrades to Heroes Feast, maybe have a large scale Phantasmal Force that upscales to Hallucinatory Terrain or Mirage Arcana. Then increases in daily uses as normal.

Creativity and Regeneration, I might say...taking into account their general sociability and enjoyment of company, chatting, storytelling, and (traditionally in 1e) jokes and laughter, the Coppers might be seen as the "artists" or "entertainers" (another reason/possibility for inserting illusion magics in there) of the dragon world.

ANOTHER way to go, "creativity/regeneration", would be to make the Coppers the "druids" of dragonkind. Use druidic magics for them. As they're already the "reverse blacks" with their acid breath, make them the antithesis of blacks' corrupting/tainting/wicked evil nature of swamps thing into the "growing green things/advancing nature/rebirth" dragons.

Bronzes are "Energy & Transformation." Aid & Dispel Magic...at Ancient: Polymorph Any Object. That seems...less than you used for the Copper. I might follow the Copper's advancement, making Polymorph Other an ADULT ability, upgrading to "Any Object" at Ancient. But other than that, I think their spell selection is spot on.

Celebrim said:

2) I don't like the 'Heal' power associated with the ancient Silver dragon in part because Heal is and was a broken spell (even with its 1 round casting time), and wonder if it should be made 'Heal Other' or changed to some other spell the captures the idea.

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Just riffing off of my own world's metal dragon lore, I tend to organize the dragons in a "class" hierarchy. The Golds are, not "divine" per se, but like "Saints" among dragonkind. They are the ones with predominantly clerical magics. So golds are, like, the priests/clerics. The Silvers are the "wizards/mages." Gathering together, studying and recording what transpires in the world/races around them. The Bronze are more "on the ground" kind of warriors or soldiers...they're the "Fighters."

To that end, I might remove the Sanctuary and Healing magic (though I do like the flavor of the Silvers offering sanctuary to those that find them/they find or help in dire situations), especially since you're not happy with it anyway. Replace it with something more "sorcery/wizard-kick-assery" kind of magical ability. Keep the Sanctuary OR the Protection from Evil (you certainly don't need both). I would say keep the Pro/Evil and add in something more "divinatory" or utility maybe? Then make the older powers things like Ice Storm or Call Lightning/Weather Control or something. Something Air/Mountain Toppy that could deal damage.

Celebrim said:

3) I'm not certain how much text to copy over from the chromatics write up. Have I copied enough to be clear?

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I think so. But it's totally up to you.

Celebrim said:

The metallic write ups are nearing completion. I'm asking for feedback a bit early because I'm less happy with them than the chromatics, and in particular I think the Brass write up is inspired but I'm much less enthusiastic about the other ones.

A bit of background, I've never actually used a metallic dragon in game, and I've not really been happy with how metallics played out in settings where I was the player, or with any of the lore I'd seen built around them (mechanically or in its write up). I've just never seen the point of them - why do we need good dragons and what role would they have in a story where the PC's are protagonists? (I've often speculated that the good dragons were actually intended to be the oriental dragons in a lose way, before becoming their own thing when oriental dragons were considered more closely.) In fact, my lack of use for metallics has led me from time to time to think about officially establishing within my setting that they don't in fact exist. Indeed, the only metallic I'd ever considered in my setting is the rogue bronze that serves the Slaad Lord Ylorg, and while it is interesting that that creature may have a noble ulterior motive for doing so, it's such deep dark lore of my setting and so relatively unimportant that I didn't think it necessary worth including metallics in the setting.

So I'm probably not the best person to do the write up.

That said, the concept that I decided on using works I think brilliantly for the Brass dragon, to the extent that for the first time I'm actually trending in favor of 'metallic dragons actually exist in the world of Sartha'.

Big things:

1) I'm not nearly as happy with the innate power selections for most of the metallics as I am for the Chromatics and the Brass dragon. Any suggestions would be appreciated, though in 1e the possible spells that are core are pretty limited. The more I worked on them, the harder it was to capture the ideas. The Silver and Gold are particularly weak I think.
2) I don't like the 'Heal' power associated with the ancient Silver dragon in part because Heal is and was a broken spell (even with its 1 round casting time), and wonder if it should be made 'Heal Other' or changed to some other spell the captures the idea.
3) I'm not certain how much text to copy over from the chromatics write up. Have I copied enough to be clear?

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They look good - thank you!