They had one job: Attack of the Gerrymander! Edition

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Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
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So? That doesn't mean they should be in charge.

Don't drive it to a false extreme. They are not "in charge". There are a couple of places where we ensure their issues carry sufficient weight.

One person, one vote.

Is not actually a foundation principle in the construction of our representation.

City life (note: not suburban life) is generally a lot more eco-friendly than rural life.

"Ecology" isn't actually the main question at hand, but, if you want to go there....

For example, dense populations support public transport as well as getting to work by foot or by bike.

That is in theory. In practice, it doesn't happen. Cities are where folks sit wasting gas idling in traffic jams, and have entire high-rise buildings heated during times when nobody's even working in them.

So pretending that rural people are somehow more suited to being in charge is highly suspect.

Again, they are not "in charge". That's strawman you should toss out.

But, if you want to continue - the city folk haven't gotten their crap together to take advantage of their potential ecological strengths. If they can't manage that in their own houses, why should they be in charge of everyone else's?
 

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tomBitonti

Adventurer
Traffic seems to be an issue of suburbs. Cities do have traffic problems, but, the amount of traffic should be very much smaller in proportion to the size of the population. (Should: The question is well does a city use efficiencies of scale.)

Cities locally may be unfriendly environments, but I'd wager they are more friendly overall to the environment than suburbs, in proportion to population.

At least, a well designed and managed city. I'm sure there are good and bad examples. Hong-Kong, for example, is very efficiently managed (although, there are a lot of rules). Not sure what would be bad examples, but perhaps Atlanta or Washington DC. Not sure how to rate a city like Mexico City.

Thx!

TomB
 

Staffan

Legend
Don't drive it to a false extreme. They are not "in charge". There are a couple of places where we ensure their issues carry sufficient weight.
You're the one arguing that making elections more representative of the actual population would lead to "stealing representation away from rural areas of a State."

The way I see it, any representation "stolen" away by more proportionality is ill-gotten in the first place.


Is not actually a foundation principle in the construction of our representation.
And that's a big reason why your government is so dysfunctional and extremely poor at getting policy results the actual population desires.


That is in theory. In practice, it doesn't happen. Cities are where folks sit wasting gas idling in traffic jams, and have entire high-rise buildings heated during times when nobody's even working in them.

That's suburbs, not cities. Or rather, suburbs are where people live and then go to cities to work, doing so by car, resulting in lots of traffic and congestion. Do you know what the "greenest" place in the US is? Manhattan.

And heating a high-rise building where a hundred families live is a lot more efficient than heating a hundred houses.

Again, they are not "in charge". That's strawman you should toss out.

Rural areas in the US have influence disproportionate to the number of people living there (primarily because of the Senate). That's inherently wrong.

But, if you want to continue - the city folk haven't gotten their crap together to take advantage of their potential ecological strengths. If they can't manage that in their own houses, why should they be in charge of everyone else's?
Again, Manhattan residents have the lowest greenhouse gas footprint in the US.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
You're the one arguing that making elections more representative of the actual population would lead to "stealing representation away from rural areas of a State."

Yes.

But let us be clear - that DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE IN CHARGE. You seem to keep trying to drive this to the ends - to black and white - as if *all* power vests in one place or another - either one is in complete charge or another. That's not how it works. There is a distribution of power, a sharing. What you propose would change the current distribution, and I am not convinced that's a great idea.

That does not mean that the folks who wold lose power currently have all of it - they don't. But they'd have less, and I think some major concerns could be missed. And, as noted earlier - ecological impact is not actually the big issue involved.

And that's a big reason why your government is so dysfunctional and extremely poor at getting policy results the actual population desires.

Actually, it isn't. For a highly diverse society like ours, the system can work out quite well. It is only more recently that it has gone quite so downhill.

That's suburbs, not cities.

They are not separable. The cities *need* the suburbs to remain economically viable. The city itself does not hold enough people to support its costs and economic engine.

So, if you are counting the ecological impact of the city without the suburb, your are cherrypicking in a way that sweeps a chunk of reality under the rug.

Rural areas in the US have influence disproportionate to the number of people living there (primarily because of the Senate). That's inherently wrong.

Systems are not inherently right or wrong. *Results* might be.

It can be argued that removing the protections, in this type of case, would reduce the practical and effective representation of individuals within rural areas *below* that of individuals in urban areas.

Again, Manhattan residents have the lowest greenhouse gas footprint in the US.

Yes - if you draw an arbitrary line around the area such that you exclude a large portion of its *actual* ecological impact, you get that result. But, if you treat it as the larger, more organic beast that it is, the numbers are not so great.

Oh, and New York is only one city. Los Angeles doesn't fare nearly so well, even if you cherry pick. Not *all* population centers are ecologically nice. So, more cherrypicking...
 
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Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
A pure economist would get rid of the rural/urban voting imbalance and let market forces take care of things...

Which would probably lead to a tragedy of the majority, as the cities overuse water and the farms go dry- gotta keep those lawns, parks and golf courses green, right?- and then the cities die off without the food from the farms.*

Our system has its benefits...









* Los Angeles is showing us the current situation in terms of water use: the urbanites are suffering through forced rationing as the surrounding farms use more than 50% of the water to keep the crops from withering...
 
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Ryujin

Legend
* Los Angeles is showing us the current situation in terms of water use: the urbanites are suffering through forced rationing as the surrounding farms use more than 50% of the water to keep the crops from withering...

... and as the wealthy refuse to conform to the usage restrictions, because they don't think that life without a green lawn and full pool is worth living.
 


Scott DeWar

Prof. Emeritus-Supernatural Events/Countermeasure
And the EPA is dumping trillions of gallons of fresh water into the sea.
 

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