A GMing telling the players about the gameworld is not like real life

Numidius

Adventurer
I have found this method to be more satisfying, too.

My players have taken a quest (very much in the sense of taking a quest in a video game) to retrieve live specimens of various dungeon critters. Their corpses are acceptable, but of much lesser value, both gold and XP wise.

If I was using 4e's rule that a player m could make his fireball knock a skag unconcious instead of killing it, this quest's risk of accidentally killing the prize wouldn't exist. Indeed, one of my very few house rules is axing 5e's rule about choosing to knock out an enemy instead of killing it with a melee weapon. And since I'm using 5e's default assumption that monsters don't get death saves, they need to use nets, lassos, sleep spells and the like.

Like you said, if the players want to knock out something out someone instead of killing him "they should be working towards that goal in advance with all the limitations that goes with it." In my game, it creates a fun moment every time the player dares to swing a sword (softening it up for a sleep spell, say) at a monster they're trying to snag.
So preventing use of fireballs as a solution to exploration/social challenges. Also making an exploration something that takes time and effort.
Were you using 4e SC, or 5e? If the latter, how does it adjudicate success or failure in that Live Critters scenario?
 

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Satyrn

First Post
So preventing use of fireballs as a solution to exploration/social challenges. Also making an exploration something that takes time and effort.
Were you using 4e SC, or 5e? If the latter, how does it adjudicate success or failure in that Live Critters scenario?

I'm playing 5e.

I can't answer the other question. I don't understand what you're asking.
 

Sadras

Legend
So preventing use of fireballs as a solution to exploration/social challenges.

Correction. Some exploration/social challenges.
5e also has a Gritty Realism* option for rests (5e, page 267 DMG), so @Satyrn's style of play doesn't seem so peculiar as it seems to match up with a possible hardcore mode of the game which the designers made possible.

*I wonder if the designers got as much flack as @Maxperson in this thread for the use of that word. :erm:

Also making an exploration something that takes time and effort.

Your point here being?
 
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Satyrn

First Post
Correction. Some exploration/social challenges.
5e also has a Gritty Realism* option for rests (5e, page 267 DMG), so @Satyrn's style of play doesn't seem so peculiar as it seems to match up with a possible hardcore mode of the game which the designers made possible.

*I wonder if the designers got as much flack as @Maxperson for the use of that word. :erm:

*My own asterisking: Not that anyone should mistake a game where goblins toss exploding turtles as grenades for realistic.

But you're essentially right, I'm going for a version of hardcore. I'm also running a sandbox, so if the players aren't interested in trying to capture a skag alive, they can just choose one of the numerous other quests, make up their own, or even just wander in aimless exploration of the megadungeon if they want.

They're engaged and having a blast with trying to wrangle a beast alive to the surface, though.
 

Satyrn

First Post
I'm gonna quote this a second time (the first half, anyway) since I didn't address it:
So preventing use of fireballs as a solution to exploration/social challenges. Also making an exploration something that takes time and effort.

The players may find an excellent use for fireball in this scenario*, but if fireball and longswords could simply knock out a monster by dropping it to zero hit points then capturing a live specimen works pretty much the same as killing it. I probably wouldn't bother making this a quest if that was the case.

And yeah, I told my players when pitching the game that Exploration would be the primary focus of the game.


*It will quickly kill off the rest of the pack so the players can focus on one survivor, for example, or they might just use to terrify the skag into running away into a lobster trap. Whatever. Those ideas are for the players to figure out.
 
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DMZ2112

Chaotic Looseleaf
That causal process has very little in common with the causal processes that bring it about that, if I go to a teahouse looking for members of a particular sect, I find any of them there. The most obvious difference is that whether or not, in real life, I meet any sect members doesn't depend upon whether anyone takes up a suggestion I make about an interesting idea.

Whether or not the GM making decisions about the gameworld, and then conveying that to the players, makes for good RPGing seems a matter of taste. But whether or not such a process is like real life seems a straightforward matter of fact. It's not.

I realize this has been going on for more than 100 pages, and I hope I can be forgiven for weighing in with an oblique viewpoint more or less cold, but I'm in the middle of reading The Science of Discworld II, having recently finished The Science of Discworld, and these two books have a lot to say on this topic.

I'll try to keep my summary brief: the gist of the discussion is that things happen on Discworld because they are what people expect. Causality is driven by the universe's high 'narrativium' content, which (in short) converts assumptions into reality. It's why there's always a good story; everything is subjective. For example: the sun is a comparatively small fireball that goes around the disc, because it appears to be a comparatively small fireball that goes around the disc, or, put another way, "because of course it does."

Our universe is presented as a counterpoint to this reality, where there is no narrativium. Things happen here because they have been following an arc guided by ultimate physical laws. Causality is therefore objective, even though we may often attribute subjectivity to it, that being human nature.

But the books are quick to point out that humans are a sort of fly in this ointment -- that we are very good at generating our own narrativium. When stories are demonstrably not true, we can and do change that. An obvious example of this is that man clearly can't stand on the moon, according to the established physical laws of this universe. It is hundreds of thousands of kilometers up the gravity well, and we can't breathe there, among other obstacles. And yet, men have stood on the moon. We made the story real.

This is true in a lot of smaller ways, too, but I'm not going to try to rewrite the books here. They are great reads; you should pick them up. My point is that sometimes, even in the real world, whether or not you meet sect members at the teahouse (metaphorically speaking) absolutely does depend on someone taking up a suggestion of an interesting idea.

The books also make some fascinating observations about how causality always appears linear in our universe at first, but uncomfortable questions start to arise when you really start looking hard at its relationship to thought. That's only tangentially relevant here, but still an interesting side point.
 

Numidius

Adventurer
I'm gonna quote this a second time (the first half, anyway) since I didn't address it:

The players may find an excellent use for fireball in this scenario*, but if fireball and longswords could simply knock out a monster by dropping it to zero hit points then capturing a live specimen works pretty much the same as killing it. I probably wouldn't bother making this a quest if that was the case.

And yeah, I told my players when pitching the game that Exploration would be the primary focus of the game.


*It will quickly kill off the rest of the pack so the players can focus on one survivor, for example, or they might just use to terrify the skag into running away into a lobster trap. Whatever. Those ideas are for the players to figure out.
Thanks for the answer. I agree, btw, otherwise, paradoxically, one could solve social situation with fireballs. Which actually happened, in DW I run, by a new player. It took some time to reach a point in the story when he would not, being at risk the life of a Pc...
Anyway it just picked my interest the shift to Exploration pillar, and I'm curious about the way it is managed in 5e.
 

Kurviak

Explorer
I'm gonna quote this a second time (the first half, anyway) since I didn't address it:

The players may find an excellent use for fireball in this scenario*, but if fireball and longswords could simply knock out a monster by dropping it to zero hit points then capturing a live specimen works pretty much the same as killing it. I probably wouldn't bother making this a quest if that was the case.

And yeah, I told my players when pitching the game that Exploration would be the primary focus of the game.


*It will quickly kill off the rest of the pack so the players can focus on one survivor, for example, or they might just use to terrify the skag into running away into a lobster trap. Whatever. Those ideas are for the players to figure out.

RAW 5th edition with mele and 4th in general don’t support this, but you can house rule both very easily. So what’s your point? I don’t get it
 

Satyrn

First Post
RAW 5th edition with mele and 4th in general don’t support this, but you can house rule both very easily. So what’s your point? I don’t get it
The point of the post you quoted was to answer Numidius's question.

You have to go back to my first post (where I quote Max) of this little exchange in order to see my original point: When the players are trying to snag a living skag, I find it more satisfying (and my players seem to, too) if they have to use nets, sleep spells or some solution other than knocking the critter to 0 hp and declaring "I knock it out instead of killing it."
 

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