Long Rests in Dangerous Places -- What if NOPE?

Shiroiken · May 21, 2019

Long rests are important, but there needs to be a reason for a mechanical NO. I instituted a "medium rest" which was the same as a long rest, but it was done in an area the DM determined hazardous. You got back about half your normal benefits, but could make a Con save (based on how hazardous) to recover about 3/4 your normal benefits. It was a very interesting idea, but the mechanics made things a bit wonky.

My group already finds safe(er) places to rest when possible. Even spells that ensure an uninterrupted rest often allow outsiders to be aware of the group, allowing them to wait for the spell to expire. In addition, intelligent creatures will usually react to the presence and actions of the PCs, so taking a long rest allows them time to regroup and install greater defenses. In a low level adventure, my party was trying to wipe out a band of kobolds that were in the dungeon of a ruined fort. Each time they came back from a long rest, the entrance would have a new trap and better defenses, warning the players that short excursions were not a good idea. If they tried to rest in the dungeon, they'd almost certainly be found by the kobolds who would attack with overwhelming numbers. This kept them pushing on until their resources were completely expended, or they came across a group to dangerous to face.

Tony Vargas · May 21, 2019

CleverNickName said:
Agreed. TBH, I'm kind of sorry I even mentioned the "five minute workday," because it seems to have pulled focus from the original topic: Long Rests.

They're very closely linked topics. The 5MWD is all about timing encounters vs rest for maximum advantage to full casters, and, thus, the PC side of those encounters. It was a very potent strategy in 3.x, when players would plot an attack, execute it, and retire to recover all-important spells. In 1e, it was vital to rest & recover spells frequently, just to survive 1st level.

CleverNickName said:
In short: what if it's a solid NO, and everyone knows and accepts it. What would that do to your game? What would that do to your play style?.

I've been messing with what constitutes a short or long rest since 4e (3e was a little too specific about some resource recoveries, most notably the Cleric, who regained spells at a given time of day, hard-coding in 24hrs). All that such pacing control did with 4e was keep encounters at a nominal threat level when widely spaced.

But, in 5e there's a definite class-balance benefit to be gained in keeping a tight reign on resting., and a specific short:long rest ratio. So, really, I'd say that the DM ruling when rest are possible, and doing so advisedly, should be the norm.

Rya.Reisender · May 21, 2019

There's no need to say "No".

Every short rest and every long rest has a risk to be attacked. Short rests are immediately interupted and need to be restarted from scratch each time. Long rests continue as long as the interuption isn't longer than an hour.

So what I did is tell my players that I'm aiming for the recommended 6-8 battles per long rest and 2-3 battles per short rest. If they do enough battles between rests, they are fairly safe when resting, but if they do less, there is a high chance of them being attacked.

I would also tell my players that resting in enemy territory without interuption is nearly impossible, unless they find a place that isn't frequently visited.

After I made them aware of these things, they adjusted their play style without even me having to interfere at all. They will try to conserve their resources rather than just using everything the first battle. They will try to push deeper into the dungeon, even if they are already wounded. They will escape the dungeon only when they're about to die. And then they get their well deserved long rest.

Yaarel · May 21, 2019

Lack of sleep should incur exhaustion levels.

S'mon · May 21, 2019

I find in my Thule game, with a 1 week long rest in between expeditions, with the expeditions typically taking 1-4 weeks to reach the adventure site, it all works out very well. The PCs naturally tend to face 6-8 encounters between LRs, which gives the recommended class balance between SR and LR classes.

Oofta · May 21, 2019

I rarely do dungeon crawls, but if I did and the people left after a fight or two only to come back the next day it would not work out well for the group. The thing is that as a DM I really don't have to play fair. I do, but if I'm up front with the players about what I'm trying to accomplish and why if they don't play along there will be consequences.

So when you say

CleverNickName said:
Yeah, we've had the dungeon change completely a few times on us, and our enemies have fortified positions and so forth. But this ends up backfiring because we still go nova on the first encounter back from town, still take a long rest right afterward, and still go back to town to rest up again. It's an XP farm.

I'd respond that the DM just wasn't trying hard enough. This happens more than once and the bad guys do a raid and gather up villagers as meat shields. They recruit a dragon. The traps aren't an inconvenience, they're a tunnel that completely collapses burying everything. The group comes back and the DM tells them there are so many Pit Fiends (summoner variant of course) that they've decided to use mob rules. The group goes back into town and the monsters follow and burn the town down around them. Or simply make the dungeons more than half a day's travel away from a safe location.

It really comes down to what's going to be fun for the entire group. I use the alternate rest rules and a sense of urgency because it works for me. If this is a problem (and it sounds like it is at least for you) then there are a lot of ways of addressing it. Some DMs just make a house rule that you can only get a long rest after a specified number of encounters.
Talk to the group. Most of the time the majority if not all will simply adjust their play style.

As far as the end result, I find it a more balanced and rewarding game. Casters at high level aren't as overpowering, they can still go nova every once in a while when they need to (and I try to throw those encounters in once in a while) but they can't do it on a regular basis. People tend to plan a bit more and weigh the consequences of their actions.

I have had players that always wanted to dominate combat, that wanted that ability to go nova every round and play the game on cruise control. I find playing on "Daddy don't hurt me" mode boring, but not everyone plays for the same reasons I do. So my ultimate advice is discuss it with the group. Change the expectations of the game justifying it any way that makes sense and try it. Just don't assume that anyone else has a problem with the 5MWD.

CleverNickName · May 21, 2019

iserith said:
If you "can't camp" in the dangerous forest, where you imagine "a safe place to camp" would be?

Sorry, I missed this question yesterday. To answer your question,

I dunno man, I'm just trying to work my brain muscles here. Maybe there's a defensible cave or a well-defended camp of friendly elves nearby that is relatively safe. Maybe the druid or wizard could use an Arcana check to find a nearby nexus of leylines where Tiny Hut coud be cast. Maybe the ranger could find a safe location with a high enough Survival check. Or maybe there's nothing that can be done: you need to get home before dark no matter what.

iserith said:
Honestly it sounds like you just want more exploration challenges in your D&D experience which is perfectly doable without messing with long rests. The resting issue is resolved with time pressure. For exploration which usually includes logistics, there just has to be meaningful travel pace (tying into time pressures), Activities While Traveling with useful trade-offs between those activities, ration tracking, weather, and random encounters. I would also suggest the variant encumbrance rules which will increase the incentive for pack animals and hirelings.

Agree, but maybe time pressure isn't the only way to resolve the resting issue and pace of travel. Maybe it would be more interesting to have terrain, enemy territories, and military borders come into play as well?

Certainly not everyone's cup of tea, but I think it could be interesting.

EpicureanDM · May 21, 2019

I do something like this by adapting the rest rules in 13th Age to 5e.

After every two encounters, the party gets the benefit of a short rest. After their sixth encounter, they get the benefits of a long rest. So over the course of six encounters, the players will get two short rests and one long one. If they faced a really hard fight, you decide that long rest happens after the fifth encounter. If the players feel that they're too beat up then, at any point, they can just declare that they're taking a long rest, which resets the rest cycle. That's fine, but then you, as the DM, get to describe a significant setback they suffer. The monsters get tougher or find dangerous reinforcements. Maybe an enemy of theirs take a major step forward in their plans, putting the party further behind in their plan to stop the villain. But for the most part, this schedule is strict. Unless the players accept the big setback or the DM decides that the players have had bad dice luck (this should be a rare determination), the schedule doesn't change.

We sever the idea of in-game time and duration from a rest, which is where all of this trouble really springs from. A party that travels for three weeks across the wilderness and has two encounters will need to face two encounters in the dungeon before they get another short rest, and four encounters before the long rest. We no longer need to think about rests in terms of hours and days, so we're free to focus on how the adventurers are being tested by their enemies and the world.

Bawylie · May 21, 2019

CleverNickName said:
Sorry, I missed this question yesterday. To answer your question,

I dunno man, I'm just trying to work my brain muscles here. Maybe there's a defensible cave or a well-defended camp of friendly elves nearby that is relatively safe. Maybe the druid or wizard could use an Arcana check to find a nearby nexus of leylines where Tiny Hut coud be cast. Maybe the ranger could find a safe location with a high enough Survival check. Or maybe there's nothing that can be done: you need to get home before dark no matter what.

Agree, but maybe time pressure isn't the only way to resolve the resting issue and pace of travel. Maybe it would be more interesting to have terrain, enemy territories, and military borders come into play as well?

Certainly not everyone's cup of tea, but I think it could be interesting.

I had the same thought for the exact same reasons as your OP some time ago.

First thing I thought of was to differentiate between sleep and rest. I decided sleep was as necessary as food and water, but didn’t itself automatically mean “rest.” Then I decided that proper rest had to be in a kind of sanctuary - a home, at minimum. To me, rest has to be reasonably free from stress or peril. Sufficient safety safety and leisure to break out a board game with kids.

Then I occasionally added sanctuaries to the world. Special places that were blessed, holy, or guarded by otherworldly forces. And then like leylines, I added special confluences of elemental power where a short rest conferred the benefits of a long rest. And wherever these are found, people want to build their keeps or fortresses on them. Or otherwise claim them.

Anyway, managing true rest while keeping track of time has smoothed out the pace of a lot of my adventures. It also helps nail a “points of light in the darkness” vibe for the game.

jgsugden · May 21, 2019

D&D is an RPG - a role playing game. You're telling a story, not playing a video game. As a DM, you can craft the story to facilitate certain challenges, such as constraining when PCs have time/resources to rest, but you may wish to go light on the intentional limitations as it ruins the immersion to have artifical constraints, constantly, that don't feel like part of the natural story.

To that same end, allowing PCs to stop and rest, anywhere, anytime, is not good for immersion, either. The world around them needs to react appropriately. If the PCs attack some goblins and then retreat into a Tiny Hut to rest, they may leave the hut and discover that they're surrounded by every ally the goblins could muster in 8 hours... or find that Hut dispelled at the 5 hour mark as a rain of arrows drop in on them.

What makes for a good story? How can you have these heres feel heroic while maintaining a world that makes enough sense to be immersive?