Encounters Confusion

So I played the first session of the Out of the Abyss Encounters season last night and I think my past experience with the format caused a flawed expectation.

I was expecting Encounters to be a new player friendly introduction to D&D, and that's not what last night's session felt like. I had heard that Out of the Abyss was D&D on "hard mode", but I didn't realize that extended to Encounters. I'm not saying that the first session was deadly, but it was not new player friendly in my experience. We had two new players at my table, a player with some experience and me. I think my DM did a great job working with the new players (explaining things on their character sheets) and he showed much enthusiasm, but the session didn't seem like much fun overall. The new players didn't know what to do as far as role playing and I noticed them looking at their character sheets as if there were clues to tell them what to do next. The other player at the table with me knew what her character could do and understood the rules, but wasn't very comfortable with role play.

I spent 2 hours role playing the scenario to virtually zero success. Yes, I learned about the area and the NPCs, but at no point did I feel a sense of concrete accomplishment. I was getting frustrated. The other players spent two hours mostly watching me role play. When they did attempt to role play, there was no payoff, so they started looking at character sheets to see what else they might try. The younger new player actually walked away from the table mid-game and watched a Magic the Gathering game in another area of the shop.

To me, this session seemed like giving a secured padlock and a bucket of keys to someone and letting them spend hours checking the keys only to find none of them fit the lock, and then asking "how many of the keys in the bucket were silver?".

The session ended with a glimmer of hope that we might try to take some action in the next session, but that glimmer has nothing to do with the two hours of talking we did last night and seems to me to be built into the adventure.

I'll be there next week because it is my only opportunity to play, but I'll be very surprised if the new players return.

So, I feel I was incorrect in my assumption that Encounters is "entry level" and Expeditions and Epic are the more advanced programs. I would like to think that Adventurer's League is considering some focus on new players and DMs. It seems that in store play is the place you would want an easy to pick up version of the game so that Magic the Gathering players would be coming to watch D&D games instead of the other way round.

I don't want to sound as if I'm complaining. The only cost for me to participate was the time and fuel to get there and I consider that a bargain. I mean for this post to be constructive criticism. I want D&D to succeed and I feel that the Adventurer's League can be a big part of growing the player base.

If I'm off base with my assessment please let me know (without spoilers for the adventure please). I'm open to the possibility that there is more to the Open Gaming plan than I have seen.

Yeah, I guess the opening of OotA isn't the most new player friendly if you are uncomfortable role playing. There's a huge emphasis (based on what I've seen 3 sessions and not very far in) on interacting with NPC's, survival with a limited amount of supplies/resources, and trying to create your own solutions. It's definitely not DnD on easy mode, but I think the point of it is to show you what you can accomplish with so little so that when you do have access to more items/spells/skills you don't just default to the stuff on your sheet.

It's a bummer you had that experience, and I can totally see that happening based on the content of the beginning of the story especially with people not super comfortable role-playing/ asking questions of the world. It could have been on the GM too, there's a fine balance in that section (and all more open ended sections of RPGs) between letting the players run their heads into a wall and just giving them the path. When I played that section I definitely felt frustrated (we didn't get anywhere until the end of our second session) for a while, but when we did make a breakthrough it felt real and dangerous, rather than something that was supposed to happen.

Good luck with the rest of the adventure and I hope it turns around, I think you make a good point about it really not being the best opening for a fresh player with no idea what you can do in an ttrpg. For that I'd recommend running the starter's set. You have to remember that this adventure isn't just meant for adventure league play, but also for all DnD players. There definitely are things they could do though to improve the new player experience for this adventure. For example in our group, I really wished the NPC cast would pipe up more, just so we remember to talk to them from time to time. The GM has a thousand things going on, however, so that is a lot to ask.

The success of the early part of Out of the Abyss will certainly depend on your DM. If you have a DM in 'say no' mode, then it's likely to be frustrating for everyone. I've certainly had that experience with different DMs over the years, and trying to separate out what the adventure actually says from the DMing techniques being used is pretty difficult for the players.

It's interesting looking at the extra advice given in the D&D Encounters document for running the first part of the adventure. I quote:

Give some thought to the types of players in your group and the style of play they prefer, using the guidelines in the Dungeon Master’s Guide—the “Know Your Players” section in the introduction and the “Play Style” section in chapter 1. Players who love social interaction might easily spend the entire first session of your campaign roleplaying their characters’ incarceration, assessing their potential NPC allies, and taking the measure of their drow captors. On the other hand, players who prefer a hack-and-slash style of play might well be itching for a quick fight to show their characters’ displeasure at having been imprisoned. If you are playing with a new group of players, think about setting up both a roleplaying encounter and a combat encounter relatively quickly in your first session. By getting a sense of how your group enjoys each style of play, you can shape how the rest of the adventure should progress.

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I think that's pretty good advice... and likely not seen or followed by your DM. (Is your DM using the published adventure or the complimentary portion of the adventure for Encounters?)

Cheers!

My DM seemed to have the adventure on a tablet. I didn't see the hardback at the table.

The session seemed very much a tail chaser to me. I was able to figure out how to overcome the communication issues among the group, but after talking to all of the other occupants of our area we were no closer to any solutions. The descriptions we got made it seem that any attempt to escape would be doomed to failure and possibly fatal. Then, as we were ending the session, an opportunity arose but it didn't seem to be related to any of the party's previous efforts. Maybe all of the role play we did last night will pay off in the next session.

Lhorgrim said:

My DM seemed to have the adventure on a tablet. I didn't see the hardback at the table.

The session seemed very much a tail chaser to me. I was able to figure out how to overcome the communication issues among the group, but after talking to all of the other occupants of our area we were no closer to any solutions. The descriptions we got made it seem that any attempt to escape would be doomed to failure and possibly fatal. Then, as we were ending the session, an opportunity arose but it didn't seem to be related to any of the party's previous efforts. Maybe all of the role play we did last night will pay off in the next session.

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I personally think the role-playing should help, of course, it's up to the DM.

Id like to point out its very hard to judge what your 'group' likes if you have never gm'd in that location before or for those players. (which albeit isnt going to be very often but needs to be considered). By the time you have a handle on what that group does or dosnt like, its too late as you have either given them an experience that they didnt like , given them an experience they did like, given them an experience that most liked and the other dids not.. or something else entirely.

In the case of Out of the Abyss, I think its definetly going to polarise far more than Princes or Hoard have, with the party essentially having 'nothing' when they start, adopting the pusuit mode as prey for a while until finally heading back to the sandbox mode. Its just not going to sit well with some players, and as has been stated above, Im not sure its particuarly great first experience for the brand new roleplayer. It is however a great experience if they survive and prosper however.

For the general question, I think Expeditions are a much easier intro, because the tend to have very little 'story' involved, and the research tends to be pretty linear and easy. Its just enough to get you from one combat to the next. It feels more like a CRPG that way.

Encounters is a more 'complete' experience of a TRPG, it allows you more options and time to experience the story, the social, and the exploration aspects. Thus it is 'harder' for some people to take part....more options means more decisions, which means more chances to just stare at your character sheet looking for answers.

It takes a solid DM to be able to pull these folks into the scene. Have the NPC approach them, or put them on a work detail in an area, and see what they do. (I admit, I screwed this part up when I did it. I left it too open ended, and they didn't engage as much as I would have liked.)
New people should be great at this part; experience in DnD doesn't really apply to this. But they need help getting started.

I think I understand the 'escape chance' you are talking about, and it is an option in the book, but there are other possibilities. Did you guys go on work details? Did you try anything else? Do you have *any* gear with you? Does magic work? Have you tried getting out? Do you know what the NPCs are capable of?
Even the method you are talking about.... I managed (almost by accident) to give enough info to the players that *they* actually initiated that method. I was surprised, but players can be damn surprising.

If the DM was making you 'work' to get info, or playing the "did you ask the right question the right way" game... it will be a painful first episode. I assumed that most of the NPCs would be willing to talk, and some info the PCs would have already gathered on their own.

What I discovered, is that a 'sandbox' can easily lead to stagnation. A DM needs to keep the players moving and engaged, by the PCs interact with NPCs and the environment, they get more chances of a 'spark' igniting to get them going. But if you let them just sit around in a cage.... they likely will just sit around and sit in a cage.

[MENTION=6939]Coredump[/MENTION] I'll try to give a little more detail about my experience. Possible spoilers ahead.....






My PC had zero equipment except for undergarments. The other three PCs had a length of rope, a shard of crystal or something that could be used as a shiv, and a flawed gemstone between them.
We did not go on work details. The details were described to us as busywork like piling rocks in one place and then moving them back. It was described as something we had done during our captivity, but we didn't role play it during the session.
These are the NPCs and their reactions as I remember them. I don't have my adventure notes handy, so I'll just use descriptions from memory.
Female dwarf scout: friendly and wants to escape, but no thoughts on a plan or weaknesses of the compound. Agrees to join us if we make a break out attempt.
Quaggoth "prince": Will barely talk to us because we're commoners. A bit more positive when we pledge to help him regain his rightful place in his homeland. He'll go with us, but no thoughts on a plan or weaknesses.
Drow prisoner: Will barely talk because we're worthless scum. Do manage to learn that he does want to escape to seek revenge on the people who framed him. Treats us with total disdain. May or may not assist in an escape attempt.
Crazy Derro: Seems crazy. Wants to place bets on who dies first. No other info.
Deep gnome siblings: Refused to speak to us the first two times we tried. Third time we just talked at them until they responded that escape might be "entertaining" or "interesting" I forget the exact term. I think they are the ones that mention going down the elevator rope if we could fight our way through the complex to get to it.
Orc: Punched my character in the face when I tried to speak to him. In orcish, the only language my PC speaks besides common. Never got any info from him.
Kuo toa: Pretty helpful. Motivated to escape and will help us.
Myconid: Helpful and allowed us to communicate with the other prisoners. Will assist us and wants to get home to his grove.
We learned the general layout of the compound through description of our previous work details. Where the stalactite buildings are, the location of the web layer and the elevator and waterfall. We noticed inscriptions on the cell door and determined that the caster's spells don't work. Somehow we know there is an armory above the guard post, but I don't remember how we got that info.
We also know about how many guards there are, and about the priestesses and male leader types. We learned about the schism between the scarred male and the one who took over his place with the priestess.
Shortly after that "scar" offered us the opportunity to escape. End of session.

Lhorgrim said:

I'll try to give a little more detail about my experience. Possible spoilers ahead...

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Sounds pretty much on track. I won't go into details, but the adventure suggests anywhere from three to four 2-hour sessions to be involved with orchestrating the escape before you do so and successfully make it to the next section.

I can certainly understand some of your frustration, tho -- imho, OotA is an amazing hardback adventure, but it is definitely not the sort of thing that makes for a good 'introduction' to either D&D in general or the AL in specific. For some new players, it's a great fit; one new guy at my table -- never played any DnD or even any RPGs before -- had a great time, because he never had to look at his character sheet and all those confusing numbers at all. He just started talking to NPCs, etc., like it was a 'choose your own adventure' style book.

However, that's not likely to be the case for most new players, and the entire setting and premise that OotA is based on is something quite alien to most newer tabletop gamers. If the DM is familiar with his players, he can adjust stuff to cater more to their preferences, but with a new crop of people, it will take a little time before everybody gets in the proper groove. And even then, chances are there will be some players that just don't like the underlying concept.

My suggestion is to give it another week or two here, and see how the DM and the players start to mesh. There are numerous ways for the players to potentially get themselves out of their mess, and the fact that 'Scar' showed up at the end of your first session seem to imply to me that the DM started getting the idea that certain avenues were not going to mesh well with the players he has, and so is shifting some options around for you to start to take advantage of.

Steve_MND said:

Sounds pretty much on track. I won't go into details, but the adventure suggests anywhere from three to four 2-hour sessions to be involved with orchestrating the escape before you do so and successfully make it to the next section.

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Thanks for the reply. I think this is where my original assumptions about Encounters were far from the reality. I was expecting more self contained sessions that could be completed at one sitting. I still thought that was the case while I was playing, so I was frustrated that we weren't getting anywhere. I was thinking that new players might come and go each week in a public play setting, so I expected a definitive endpoint. That was my previous experience with the format. I guess I just wasn't expecting a more long term type of session that might take three or four weeks to get through.

I like the concept of the adventure, I just took a curveball to the noggin because I had made some incorrect assumptions about the format. Live and learn and enjoy the ride.



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