Advantage vs. bonus?

TheCosmicKid · Jul 26, 2018

So, say I'm writing a new race or class or feat, and I want it to make the character good at, oh, let's say Acrobatics.

Do I give the character proficiency/expertise with Acrobatics, advantage in Acrobatics, or some flat bonus to Acrobatics?

Why?

What's the difference? What do these distinct mechanical tools represent, and when should you use one over another?

Horwath · Jul 26, 2018

Advantage should be situational/magical effect. Not "always on" ability.

If new race is better at something than default then proficiency/expertise represents that.

Flat bonuses are rare in 5e as it breaks bounded accuracy. Starting proficiency/expertise gives you bonus from start while other races have to seek special training(cost to other class features) to match the specific aptidute of your design race.

expertise vs. advantage: expertise gives you ability better than it is normal and lets you achieve things that are above normal training(proficiency)

Advantage give you more reliability. As it shift average d20 roll from 10,5 to 13,8. But max skill level still stays the same, you are just more likely to succed on though chalenges that were already in your training possibility.

aco175 · Jul 26, 2018

I was more thinking that advantage was more race related (like dwarf or halfling advantage to saves) and proficiency bonus was more class related (like thief bonus to skills).

Particle_Man · Jul 26, 2018

Don't elves start with proficiency in Perception, and Half-Orcs with proficiency in Intimidate, and Goliaths with proficiency in Athletics? So for a new race that is good at Acrobatics, I would go for proficiency.

TheCosmicKid · Jul 26, 2018

Horwath said:
Advantage should be situational/magical effect. Not "always on" ability.

If new race is better at something than default then proficiency/expertise represents that.

Flat bonuses are rare in 5e as it breaks bounded accuracy. Starting proficiency/expertise gives you bonus from start while other races have to seek special training(cost to other class features) to match the specific aptidute of your design race.

Not challenging you, just exploring these ideas -

"Advantage should be situational, not 'always on' ": Seems reasonable, fits my intuitions and looks to be usually the way the game works. But there are a few oddities. [MENTION=27385]aco175[/MENTION] brought up racial advantages to saves. I think that can be explained as a result of save proficiencies being fixed by class. So if a dwarf got proficiency to Con saves, that might overlap with his fighter or barbarian proficiency. But if it's advantage, they "stack". Not a problem with skill proficiencies, because they're not fixed: an elf can get Perception from her race and just pick something else from her class. But this doesn't explain why the kalashtar in this month's Unearthed Arcana gets advantage rather than proficiency with a skill. Or why the barbarian's Danger Sense grants advantage rather than proficiency with Dexterity saves.

Flat bonuses: The real outlier here is the pass without trace spell. Also a couple of feats. What's up with those?

LordEntrails · Jul 26, 2018

TheCosmicKid said:
...
Flat bonuses: The real outlier here is the pass without trace spell. Also a couple of feats. What's up with those?

Oversight? Designers return to 3E philosophy? A required exception because Pro/Adv didn't work for some reason?

I would suggest you not add more outliers. I would stick with proficiency/exoertise myself. Advantage if required. And then only if none of those work and the only way to do it is with a bonus, then go that way.

Tormyr · Jul 28, 2018

TheCosmicKid said:
Not challenging you, just exploring these ideas -

"Advantage should be situational, not 'always on' ": Seems reasonable, fits my intuitions and looks to be usually the way the game works. But there are a few oddities. [MENTION=27385]aco175[/MENTION] brought up racial advantages to saves. I think that can be explained as a result of save proficiencies being fixed by class. So if a dwarf got proficiency to Con saves, that might overlap with his fighter or barbarian proficiency. But if it's advantage, they "stack". Not a problem with skill proficiencies, because they're not fixed: an elf can get Perception from her race and just pick something else from her class. But this doesn't explain why the kalashtar in this month's Unearthed Arcana gets advantage rather than proficiency with a skill. Or why the barbarian's Danger Sense grants advantage rather than proficiency with Dexterity saves.

Flat bonuses: The real outlier here is the pass without trace spell. Also a couple of feats. What's up with those?

My guess is pass without a trace uses a flat bonus so that it doesn't counteract disadvantage from heavy armor and provides a solid chance of beating contested Wisdom (Perception) checks. Similarly, the -5 to hit for GWM and SS can be offset with advantage.

As for the original question, use advantage when you want it to combine with proficiency. Use proficiency when you want to provide an additional skill that gets better over time. Another differentiating factor is whether the bonus is granted at character creation / level 1 vs a later level. Most things that come at a later level are advantage rather than proficiency so it doesn't step on the toes of the proficiency granted at character creation.

In this case, I would recommend proficiency because acrobatics is an extra thing that all creatures of this race are good at.

MechaPilot · Jul 28, 2018

TheCosmicKid said:
So, say I'm writing a new race or class or feat, and I want it to make the character good at, oh, let's say Acrobatics.

Do I give the character proficiency/expertise with Acrobatics, advantage in Acrobatics, or some flat bonus to Acrobatics?

Why?

What's the difference? What do these distinct mechanical tools represent, and when should you use one over another?

It depends.

Why are members of that race good at that thing?

If they're good at it because their culture expects them to be skilled at it, and they put in the time and effort to train in it, then I'd go with proficiency (and I'd probably give them expertise with that skill if they get training in it through another non-racial means).

If they're good at it because of biology or innate magic, then I'd go with advantage.

Zardnaar · Jul 28, 2018

I treat advantage as roughly equal to +4.

Winterthorn · Jul 28, 2018

Zardnaar said:
I treat advantage as roughly equal to +4.

The game rules specify to use +5/-5 if an effect or feature or ruling awards advantage/disadvantage on a passive check, such as on one"s passive Wisdom (Perception) score. I am not a wiz with probability math so +5 "looks" good to me for advantage.