Multi-classing: thrill me

[Eldorian]

Follow the way of the staff.


Wizard w Student of the Sword (Staff)

Go into the Kensai

You're now at +3 (+4 once per encounter) to hit and with weapon focus between +2 and +7 (depending on level) to damage with all your powers as long as you are wielding a staff as an implement.

Plus you can whack some shmoe in the face if he gets too close and you have two good damage mitigation powers.

Kensei mentions "weapon" in all those entries. When used in a wizard spell, you're using the staff as an implement, not a weapon. So no dice. Also, your interpretation doesn't make sense.

Edit: Mutliclasses that work: Basically, take your primary class, pick a secondary stat that works for your primary class, and pick another class which uses that secondary stat as a primary stat. That's a good multiclass. Also, if your primary stat is the primary stat of another class, that works too. It's best not to mix up weapon attacks with implements, and not to mix implement types, if you can avoid it. The warlock's pact blade makes it work as a second class for rogue, however. It's a good idea to mix roles, so that your mutliclass powers you pick do something different from what your main class does, tho working within your own role can work too, if you see a power that would work really well with your main class.

Here is a list of some interesting (to me) mutliclasses: Warlord/wizard. Rogue/cleric (weapon cleric). Fighter/ranger. Warlock/wizard. Fighter/rogue (helps to be a halfling or to dual wield and use a short sword in offhand, rogue has some close burst enemy only powers that work great for marking, if you use a dagger). Fighter/cleric (you can build a fighter/cleric or cleric/figher who uses all types of cleric powers, due to high str and wis, same as a ranger/cleric or cleric/ranger.) Cleric/ranger (dual wielding cleric). Ranger/cleric (very different from cleric/ranger, if you want can use ranged instead of melee).

There you go, hope I seeded some ideas.

 

[NorthSaber]

How about a fighter multiclassing into wizard to pick up Scorching Burst or Thunderwave as an encounter power? Who cares about hitting, it lets you mark all enemies in a 3x3 as an extra encounter ability.

That's me! ^_^

I started out as an Eladrin Fighter who uses a longspear (terribly unoptimal, I know) just because I like the whole idea, and ended up taking the Wizard multiclass-feat and Thunderwave. The Eladrin Int-bonus actually has some use now, and it looks like my character will also end up being the Ritual Caster of our group (racial bonus to Arcana doesn't hurt!)...

I fortunately also have Wis 14 so Thunderwave will give push 2 (push 3 at epic levels), and I'm probably going to go with the Iron Vanguard paragon path, which causes all push to damage the target (I'll have Con 14 at that point, so each target pushed will take 2 extra damage).

With Fey Step, the character is looking like a pretty decent fighter/mage already, and I intend to take the utility power-swap feat to get more "wizardly" abilities like Invisibility. I really like the option to reselect the wizard power at each level, so if fighter has no interesting utility powers of a certain level, she can pick a wizard utility instead. (I just find it kinda stupid that you forget your old powers when you pick new ones...)

 

[Cryptos]

This is more fluff than anything, but I did make a "Holy Assassin" out of a rogue with Initiate of the Faith.

I don't suppose that's very 'sexy' in terms of crunch though... hmm.

You take Divine Oracle as a paragon path with the Rogue / Cleric for an extra roll for initiative, use whichever result is higher, to help make sure you get in that first sneak attack. It also gives the rogue an additional move action whenever an action point is spent. And then there's Prophecy of Doom... choose to make an attack a critical hit once per encounter... and the rogue can take feats that knock a creature prone when a critical hit is made. You can't do much with the 16th level feature as a rogue, but it still sounds pretty good.

 

[Andor]

Kensai mentions "weapon" in all those entries. When used in a wizard spell, you're using the staff as an implement, not a weapon. So no dice. Also, your interpretation doesn't make sense.

PHB pg 55/56 under accessories. "If you have a proficiency bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls from your weapon or an enhancement bonus to your attack rolls and damage rolls from a magic weapon or implement, you add that bonus when you use a power that has the associated keyword."

That rule is why Pact daggers explicitly don't give you the +3 proficiency bonus to hit when useing them as an implement. Same deal with the Holy Avenger

Staves however are quite explicitly also both weapons and implements and they do not have any such exception built in. Neither does the Spiral Tower wizard PP btw. So normal proficiency bonus and extras like the kensai PP and weapon focus certainly count. It couldn't be clearer.

And please don't ever try using "It doesn't make sense" in a 4e arguement. Sense got left off in the parking lot. :/

 

[Eldorian]

PHB pg 55/56 under accessories. "If you have a proficiency bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls from your weapon or an enhancement bonus to your attack rolls and damage rolls from a magic weapon or implement, you add that bonus when you use a power that has the associated keyword."

Sigh. If I must. Point out to me where the kensei gives a proficiency or enhancement bonus. They're untyped. They apply to attacks made with weapons. A staff used in a wizard spell isn't a weapon. It functions as a melee weapon only when used in melee.

That rule is why Pact daggers explicitly don't give you the +3 proficiency bonus to hit when useing them as an implement. Same deal with the Holy Avenger

Yes.

Staves however are quite explicitly also both weapons and implements and they do not have any such exception built in.

They do. They are not weapons unless used as weapons.

Neither does the Spiral Tower wizard PP btw.

Also false. A longsword used by a Wizard of the Spiral Tower to cast spells is not a longsword. It is either a wand, staff, or orb, a choice made at level 11. A pact blade IS a weapon when used to cast spells. Hence the rule stating no proficiency bonus. A holy sword is a holy symbol when used to cast spells, so no proficiency bonus, and no need to state that you don't get it.

So normal proficiency bonus and extras like the kensai PP and weapon focus certainly count. It couldn't be clearer.

False, since you seem to think staffs get a proficiency bonus to hit when used as an implement. They are not melee weapons when used as implements. They count as melee weapons when used as melee weapons. They are not melee weapons otherwise.

And please don't ever try using "It doesn't make sense" in a 4e arguement. Sense got left off in the parking lot. :/

I didn't leave mine there. Putting this at the end of your post means I won't reply again. Have a nice day =P

 

[On Puget Sound]

Eyebite seems a more natural fit with a Rogue frankly...

Eyebite does work well with the paladin's Divine Challenge. "You can't fight anyone but me, and you can't even see me..."

 

[Andor]

A holy sword is a holy symbol when used to cast spells, so no proficiency bonus, and no need to state that you don't get it.

Then why is it explicitly stated on page 234 that the Holy Avenger does not provide a proficiency bonus to hit when used as an implement if it was as clear as you fondly imagine?

A pact blade IS a weapon when used to cast spells.

Why, exactly is a pact blade a weapon when used to cast spells but a staff is not? Please cite the passage you're referencing..

Because what I see is : "This blade functions as a warlock implement, adding it's enhancement bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls for warlock powers that use implements." and "Special: You do not gain your weapon proficiency bonus to attack rolls when using the Pact blade as an implement."

I also note that on page 240 2nd to last paragraph it states "Unlike other implements, a staff also functions as a melee weapon (treat as a quarterstaff). When used in melee, a staff applies its enhancement bonus and critical damage dice just as a melee weapon does."

There is exactly no difference between a magic staff as listed on page 241 vs page 235. Both function as either an implement (for a wizard) or a melee weapon. The enhancement bonus functions with either a melee attack or a spell power explicitly. Do you pretend that a wizard does not get his +2 proficiency bonus when wielding his staff in melee? Or that Weapon focus would not apply? On page 219 it simply state "Proficiency with a weapon gives you a proficiency bonus to attack rolls with, which appears in this column if applicable." There is not one damm syllable about only applying when the weapon is being used as a weapon and not as an implement. Likewise the Weapon focus feat.

There are 4 places in the rules where weapons and implements overlap. The staff. The Holy avenger. The Pact blade. And the Wizard of the spiral tower. The Holy avenger and pact blade explictly remove the proficiency bonus (but not weapon feat bonuses) from the equation. The other 2 do not. Are you saying this was a mistake? Or do you feel it was deliberate obfuscation? Or could it simply be that the RAW are the RAW?

Incidently on page 87 the Kensai class powers don't say a damm thing about not applying when used as implements.

As for 'doesn't make sense to me' that's nothing more than a failure of imagination on your part. I'm perfectly capable of conceiving of a wizard becoming more magically proficient with a staff by studying it's martial applications. Or by spending years studying it's wood grains and how they channel the flow of power for that matter.

But if you're going to insist that 4e makes perfect sense to you, then by all means explain martial dailies to me. Or why expanded spell book helps with attack spells, but not utility spells. Or why I can spend a feat to learn magic missile, or meteor storm, but not prestidigitation. Or why a Paladin of Pelor needs to spill the blood of his foes before he can heal someone.

Or explain why you can swallow all that but a wizard persueing a paragon path that studies the staff and actually benefiting from it is going one yard too far for you.

Oh wait:

I didn't leave mine there. Putting this at the end of your post means I won't reply again. Have a nice day =P

Yeah, I'm sure you are actually taking a moral stand rather than trolling and leaving yourself a weaslly excuse for why you aren't defending your indefensible position.

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

I'm going to be playing an Eladrin Fighter who unravels his father's spellbook to multiclass into Wizard, then Mage of the Spiral Tower, concentrating on thunder/lightning spells and teleport utilities.

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

Then why is it explicitly stated ... defending your indefensible position.

Actually I believe he is correct. For starters, you only get a proficieny bonus from a weapon on powers with the weapon keyword (and you only get bonus damage from feats and the like for these powers too). Similarly you can only use Implement Mastery with powers that have the implement keyword. I guess the Holy Avenger and Pact Blade were written at a slightly different time or by someone different or edited less, hence they explicitly state the case.

 

[hong]

Then why is it explicitly stated on page 234 that the Holy Avenger does not provide a proficiency bonus to hit when used as an implement if it was as clear as you fondly imagine?

The process by which a clarifying note supporting X can be construed as evidence against X is truly fascinating. Perhaps it is related to the overuse of generic food metaphors.

Say Andor, how are you going finding a 4E game?