Forked Thread: Three more days

[Corjay]

Seriously, how about this ...

It is ok for this thread to exist:

4E stinks!
No, 3.5 stinks!
No, 2nd Edition stinks!
No, 1E stinks!
No, OD&D stinks!
No, they all stink!
No, they do not stink! I love them!
Yes, they do stink! I hate them!
Well, I love them!
Well, I hate them!

But is is *not* ok for *this* thread to exist:

4E stinks!
No, you stink!
No, you stink!
Well, he stinks!
Well, she stinks!
Well, they all stink!
Well, he's ok!
No, he's not!
Yes he is!
No he's not!

The *first* thread is referring to a *game.* Someone is expressing an *opinion.*

The *second* thread is referring to *people.* Someone is expressing a *personal insult.*

So your point is that as long as they're not attacking each other, it's okay for them to yell at each other over the game versions, even though the discussion gets them absolutely no more satisfaction than getting it off their chest that they hate the other version? And how would letting this take place improve the mood around here?

I'm personally feeling no stress over the restriction of that freedom. Why would anyone else? Should a soldier in the military feel stress over his inability to kill someone when he goes back home and has to abide by the law? Should a person feel stress over not being able to steal their neighbor's food when they have their own freshly stocked refrigerator? Really, more accurately, should a husband and wife that barate each other day in and day out feel MORE stress by having that freedom restricted? I mean, come on. Have you never yourself said the words "shut up and deal?"

 

[wedgeski]

The trouble is, I come here because ENW is a unique environment. I can't stand much more than thirty seconds reading of the WotC boards, or RPG.net, or any number of other sites, because the general tone is just so antagonistic and childish that it drives me away. Over the years I've come to really admire what has been created here, both by the mods and by the self-moderation and general attitude of the posters, and I really really don't want to see it go away.

Before the ban, I started to see it go away.

 

[Jhaelen]

Remember when someone had the audacity to write their thoughts on the editing of the book and that blew out of proportion?

I think, I do. IIRC, what caused the problem was an inappropriate thread title. The OPs content was perfectly fine. Do you know how many people just read the headlines in newspapers?

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

So your point is that as long as they're not attacking each other, it's okay for them to yell at each other over the game versions, even though the discussion gets them absolutely no more satisfaction than getting it off their chest that they hate the other version?

Yep. This is a messageboard for Gamers: they should feel free to vent their feelings about D&D. Just my take.
I find the current angry situation to be unfortunate, in many respects, incidentally.

And how would letting this take place improve the mood around here?

I tried advocating improving the mood, 8 years ago. Got mugged here for it. Got depressed and asked a comical question to allievate the depression. The question was about what would happen if gnomes started the industrial revolution in Faerun. LOL.
Humor is the answer to many things. But I don't have a good answer to your question, I'm afraid.

I'm personally feeling no stress over the restriction of that freedom. Why would anyone else?

(muses)

Hey, you haven't seen me join the Edition Wars. Stayed out of it.
Others? They want to do ... what they want to do. Not my place to tell them what to do.
I mean, it's up to Morrus and the Admins. They decide here. Not me.
If I were running ENWorld? I'd probably do what they do: disallow personal insults and implied insults as best I could, while allowing as free a discussion as possible (ala: if you say '4E sucks' once, that's fine. But if you say '4E stinks' 100 times, you might give it a rest there. And threadcrapping, threadjacking, and other nonsense like that is never ok.)
Just me. Heh.

Have you never yourself said the words "shut up and deal?"

Oh yes!
In fact, my first rule on being a good D&D player is: 'take it like a man.'
Which is pretty close to 'shut up and deal.'
So, I think we agree on some of these issues. : )

 

[ThirdWizard]

I think there is an underlying problem to this whole edition war thing. It seems to me that ENWorld itself is in an identity crisis, split down the middle between 3e and 4e players who are both worried about being marginalized as far as the community is concerned. ENWorld has a great community, and people who have chosen one edition of D&D over the other are, I think, rightly worried that the other edition is going to push them away from the community base.

The people sticking with 3e are worried that ENWorld will leave them with nowhere to really go to discuss their favorite edition. It is called Murrus' 4th Edition D&D now after all. ENWorld has been a 3e haven on the internet for intelligent discussion for about a decade now, the premiere 3e site. If it suddenly jumps into 4e head first, where does that leave them? They've put a lot of work and effort into ENWorld, building the community that makes this site so great, and to be summarily tossed, well, that's not fair at all.

The people moving to 4e are worried about ENWorld's 3e base, many of whom are long time respected members of this community, pushing them out of the site. They're already making a big leap with the new edition, and its becoming more and more obvious that despite what anyone may debate or argue about the majority of D&D's player base sticking with 3e or moving to 4e, there are a lot of ENWorlders sticking with 3e and very vocal about it. It leaves them wonderingn if, while ENWorld the site appears to be embracing 4e, the community is going to end up pushing them out.

Now this is just the people who have either switched completely or not at all. I think the majority of people haven't really made that kind of mental commitment. I also think that while both viewpoints are valid, that acting on these fears only worsens the situation. If you think you're being marginalized or pushed away, you want to push back, you want to make sure that you're being heard. But, since both sides are in this mentality, they feel that they're being attacked.

But, most people aren't really attacking. They're responding to perceived threats. I make this claim because both sides seem to be posting under the assumption that the other side is out to get them. They see offenses where none are meant, but when you see things like that everywhere its only a matter of time before things get real, people start fighting, and edition wars erupt, even if its contained not to look like it. Add to that that people here just like debate, and things

I don't know if I'm right, but I feel right. The atmosphere here feels different. On high alert. The more I think about it, the more I worry that the problem isn't really edition wars, but the perceptions of people regarding the future of the community. This itself isn't really something the moderators can solve themselves. We have to either make a conscious decision to allow 3e and 4e to both go unmolested or one group or the other will eventually run the other off. We don't want that, do we? I don't.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I think there is an underlying problem to this whole edition war thing. It seems to me that ENWorld itself is in an identity crisis, split down the middle between 3e and 4e players who are both worried about being marginalized as far as the community is concerned. ENWorld has a great community, and people who have chosen one edition of D&D over the other are, I think, rightly worried that the other edition is going to push them away from the community base.

The people sticking with 3e are worried that ENWorld will leave them with nowhere to really go to discuss their favorite edition. It is called Murrus' 4th Edition D&D now after all. ENWorld has been a 3e haven on the internet for intelligent discussion for about a decade now, the premiere 3e site. If it suddenly jumps into 4e head first, where does that leave them? They've put a lot of work and effort into ENWorld, building the community that makes this site so great, and to be summarily tossed, well, that's not fair at all.

The people moving to 4e are worried about ENWorld's 3e base, many of whom are long time respected members of this community, pushing them out of the site. They're already making a big leap with the new edition, and its becoming more and more obvious that despite what anyone may debate or argue about the majority of D&D's player base sticking with 3e or moving to 4e, there are a lot of ENWorlders sticking with 3e and very vocal about it. It leaves them wonderingn if, while ENWorld the site appears to be embracing 4e, the community is going to end up pushing them out.

Now this is just the people who have either switched completely or not at all. I think the majority of people haven't really made that kind of mental commitment. I also think that while both viewpoints are valid, that acting on these fears only worsens the situation. If you think you're being marginalized or pushed away, you want to push back, you want to make sure that you're being heard. But, since both sides are in this mentality, they feel that they're being attacked.

But, most people aren't really attacking. They're responding to perceived threats. I make this claim because both sides seem to be posting under the assumption that the other side is out to get them. They see offenses where none are meant, but when you see things like that everywhere its only a matter of time before things get real, people start fighting, and edition wars erupt, even if its contained not to look like it. Add to that that people here just like debate, and things

I don't know if I'm right, but I feel right. The atmosphere here feels different. On high alert. The more I think about it, the more I worry that the problem isn't really edition wars, but the perceptions of people regarding the future of the community. This itself isn't really something the moderators can solve themselves. We have to either make a conscious decision to allow 3e and 4e to both go unmolested or one group or the other will eventually run the other off. We don't want that, do we? I don't.

Yes, I think that sums it up well. Definitely for me, at least. Or in short: QFT

or in long:
[sblock]

I want to go to EN World to discuss the game(s) I play. I don't want to feel unwelcome because people say that I am playing the wrong game/edition.

Unfortunately I think, at the moment every "side" here will feel unwelcome as long as people try to engage in edition wars.
I mean, what's the point of posting in a 3E thread if you don't want to contribute positively (and no, suggesting another game or edition is usually not helpful. But pointing out how another game or edition solves a problem can be.)?
And similar, why post in a 4E thread if you don't want to contribute positively?
In the end, not contributing positively leads to heating the flames and making people uncomfortable.


There are certain areas where general game design discussions can and should be conducted. But people have to understand that their is no need to defend their choices, or to attack the choices of others. Explain how you arrived at your choice or how it fits your preferences. It usually helps to explain how things relate to you, instead of painting with a broad brush and saying stuff like "gamers like" or "the majority" or "only a vocal minority" and what else broad categorizations you might want to use.
[/sblock]

 

[Fifth Element]

I think, I do. IIRC, what caused the problem was an inappropriate thread title. The OPs content was perfectly fine. Do you know how many people just read the headlines in newspapers?

"The tragedy of 4E", IIRC.

 

[Fifth Element]

And then some posters who do nothing but make pithy attempts at "wit"

Hong is a feature, not a bug.

 

[Wolfspider]

The trouble is, I come here because ENW is a unique environment. I can't stand much more than thirty seconds reading of the WotC boards, or RPG.net, or any number of other sites, because the general tone is just so antagonistic and childish that it drives me away. Over the years I've come to really admire what has been created here, both by the mods and by the self-moderation and general attitude of the posters, and I really really don't want to see it go away.

Before the ban, I started to see it go away.

Your post confuses me. You admire what was created an ENWorld, which includes a healthy chunk of self-moderation among the posters, but you are in favor of a topic ban that removes that element?

 

[Wolfspider]

Well said, ThirdWizard.

I for one used to post here quite often. Now, since the site has switched its focus to 4th edition, I find myself visiting here less and less. I feel pushed away and rejected, but I really don't have anywhere else to go.

I guess I'll just find myself a refrigerator box and hang out in the alley next door.