Giving Old Skool one last shot before calling it quits.

[Reynard]

4E has been something of a rollercoaster for me. But now that its been out and I have played it a few times and read it thoroughly, I realize that it just isn't D&D to me (I really don't want to get into a fight about whether it is or isn't -- suffice it to say that it isn't IMO). While it might be a good game for it's intended use, it doesn't excite me.

But that's really not the point. The fact that it didn't ecite me got to thinking about D&D and all the good times I've had with it, and all the bad times, and in doing so I sort of saw what D&D is to me, or at least what good D&D is to me. I smashed my head against the 3.x wall for a good long time, trying to make it work. Sometimes it was me issues; sometimes it was group issues; sometimes it was game system issues. And while I had some fun times with 3.x, I think when it is all tallied there was more pain than pleasure, more effort than reward.

And this too brought me to a realization: I like old school gaming. I like subtly adversarial player/DM relationships. I like random monsters and random treasure and all that other randomness. I like esoteric subsystems. i like player balance over the long term. I like vancian magic. I like thieves that aren't front line combatants and druids that aren't combat machines and clerics that have to choose between being the medic or the utiliy caster. i like mages that go from zero to hero over the course of the campaign and fighters that have to rule lands and command armies to keep up. In short, i like old school D&D.

But i'm also getting on, with two young children and car/house payments and all that. I am damn near "retiring" entirely. I haven't been active here in some time and I barely engage in anything resembling "gaming" lately (aside from a few 4E 'playtest' sessions). It would be easy to just pack all my books (from all editions) into a box and put them in the crawl space with my star wars toys and old army stuff and let it be.

But I don't want to. I want to enjoy it again. I want to play D&D the way I want to play it; more importantly, run it the way I want to run it. i want to give it one more honest go before I "retire", before I give it up, putting it behind me as something I "used to do". i don't want to be done with it, even if I think I might be. I want just a little piece of that fun, that wonder, that awesome back that comes with my D&D.

And 4E ain't it. Neither is 3E. I think, in fact, it's 1E without all that ramp up to 2E junk (UA, the Survival Guides, ec..) It might actually be 2E pre-kits and player's option, though, as I played that longer. In any case, it's AD&D, probably some 1E/2E amalgam.

I am going to try and convince a few people I know to give it a go with me (and not ask a few other people -- a good part of my problem has also been player pool oriented). If it works, if it's fun and awesome and a worthwhileinvestment of the time and energy, Iwill be so happy. if it doesn't -- well, I just don't want to give it up without taking one last swing at it, I guess.

 

[JeffB]

I plan to run 4E in the "old school" style you mentioned- at least as much as the rules will allow for, but I believe most of that style is really DM driven, and not rule-set driven (in the general sense).

That said, I'd def take a look at C&C- if 4E ends up not floating my boat, I'll be back to that, with some houserules. It's a great "old style" system @ heart, with a better (i.e. more streamlined) rules set than O/B/X/A D&D. And the great thing is , conversion of those older materials to the C&C game is pretty much cake. I can use all the good bits out of my 1e and B/X books as well as the modules and accessories with a minimum amount of fuss.

 

[Reynard]

I plan to run 4E in the "old school" style you mentioned- at least as much as the rules will allow for, but I believe most of that style is really DM driven, and not rule-set driven (in the general sense).

I disagree. There's so much of "my D&D" missing from 4E, and so much additional stuff taking its place, that 4E cannot, without massive houseruling, be used for "old school" play, IMO. It's hard to articulate exactly what I mean, and even harder to "prove", but a very simple answer is the rogue as a front line fighting kuisinart -- that is so far from "old school" that it can't be overstated.

That said, I'd def take a look at C&C

I've looked at C&C and it really doesn't do anything that I can't do with my 1E books. it isn't that its bad, it's that it is, at best, superfluous.

 

[seskis281]

Heh, Might need to change your sig

And I would add that I'd recommend giving C&C a whirl and seeing how the SIEGE mechanic comes into play -- it really does allow a lot of actions and choices that straight-forward 1e doesn't, and it's not as apparent in just reading the rules. Of course, if that isn't your thing per se, that's certainly cool too.

Best of luck no matter which way you go with this! (Hell, after C&C I've realized my next favorite is still Moldvay/Cook B/X).

 

[Reynard]

Heh, Might need to change your sig

True dat.

 

[Traveon Wyvernspur]

I've been playing 4e now for about a month. It's not the D&D I'm used to that is for sure. They've made it into a map/grid/movement/miniture game. Old school had no need of the silly map telling you where you were and where all enemies were. It was question and answer between DM/Players explaining the terrain, the distance and all that good stuff. It was all in the head, now it's all on the table. I think it takes a lot of the imagination away from what D&D started out as. They slap a bunch of new rules on there, take out some of the best classes until they decided to publish new books that we have to pay $20-$30 for at a pop, or get by other less honest means. When I think back to my best DM'ing/Playing campaigns in 2nd edition, it was all about the vivid visuals in our heads and the awesomeness of getting that critical hit on the dragon or blowing stuff up with a powerful mage. Now it seems everyone has their "role" to play and they are trying to make it more like WoW or w/e. I still enjoy it, but it's not as fun as it used to be to me is my point. Old school was easier to keep track of fights and stuff too, they say that 4e is more streamlined, but I have to disagree wholeheartedly, there are more things to keep track of, effects, action points, rolls vs 4 defenses instead of just 1 as well as a saving throw, etc. I'm just rambling on now, but I do wish I still had my old group that used to play 2e, but we grow up and we move and get different lives, such is life.

 

[Edgewood]

I want to enjoy it again. I want to play D&D the way I want to play it; more importantly, run it the way I want to run it. i want to give it one more honest go before I "retire", before I give it up, putting it behind me as something I "used to do". i don't want to be done with it, even if I think I might be. I want just a little piece of that fun, that wonder, that awesome back that comes with my D&D.

I completely know where you're coming from having declared my dissatisfaction with the current trend of D&D and how I miss the Old School feel I got wen I played old D&D. That was however before 4E came out. Having said that, I have not read or tried 4E nor do I have any interest in doing so. I have been reading over the old 1E books and was starting to get that feeling just from reading them.

My next step is to now find a group willing to give the game a chance. I'm also in the same situation as you, mortgage/kids/wife and I too find it harder to maintain my gaming life. I hope you find what you're looking for. I know that I'm happier to have gone back to the beginning, even if it is to just read the books.

Good Luck

 

[Deuce Traveler]

I've refound my love for BECMI after the last few weeks. I do like C&C for the vast array of options in character creation and the ability to create more classes and races.

 

[smootrk]

I have become very fond of Basic Fantasy Role Play Game www.basicfantasy.org

Old school like my old basic red expert blue box sets, yet updated slightly with just a few d20 improvements. And it is FREE!!!

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

Reynard, a lot of your post resonated with me. I went down a very similar path. I liked what I saw in 3E, played it, and wrestled with it, always aiming for that "old school" experience. Eventually I realized that it gave me everything I always wanted in D&D...but it wasn't what I wanted. I knew I was dissatisfied, but still didn't know exactly what I wanted. I experimented with some other systems: Savage Worlds, Lejendary Adventure, True20, Castles & Crusades...Whoa! C&C tickled my "D&D spot" like nothing had in a long while. I became a C&C enthusiast, dug out all my old B/X and AD&D books to use with it, and started having a great time.

Then something weird happened. The more I played C&C, the more I ran across little things that didn't work like I wanted. I started house-ruling, and I noticed that my house rules were making C&C more and more like the old editions. Eventually I realized that what I wanted *was* the old editions.

When I returned to "old school" gaming and the old editions, I returned with a very different perspective than when I left them. I had learned a little about system design (those "behind the curtain" sidebars and such), and I started applying "why is this designed this way" to the old editions. With my new perspective, I found that many things that seemed weird to me, before, or that I'd considered wholly arbitrary or broken, now made sense. My "philosophy" of gaming had shifted, and I had a better handle on what worked and was fun, for me, and what didn't. In short, I realized that I like old school gaming, and that the rules mattered and contributed to that approach, in ways I hadn't realized, before.

I revisited all the old editions. I originally thought I'd end up playing 1E, which was *the* edition of my youth. (I started in 77 or 78 with Holmes Basic, but pretty much immediately dove into AD&D.) However, as it turns out, the edition that I ended up with is the one that I'd never played, back in the day: original (white box). It was traditional D&D, obviously. Its approach and assumptions were congruent with my own. It lacked the buildup and additions of the later rules. It was also something like a toolkit, allowing me to house-rule and make the game my own, bringing all my years of experience to the table. (I'm not saying that you can't do that with other systems, but certain games seem to facilitate that approach more than others.) It let me easily use all my old TSR D&D material. I started with the original three brown books, and built my own, personal old school D&D from there. I've been having more fun with OD&D than I've ever had with any edition, to date. I don't think I would've liked it, when I was younger, but I have a different attitude and perspective, these days. Anyway, it's very much "my game," now, which I don't see changing.

You may get some comments about nostalgia or rose colored glasses or not being able to "go back." That's crap. My advice is to follow the fun. If you have fun and like the experience you're having, then it stands on its own. Browse through my OD&D site, too, even if you favor B/X or AD&D or another older edition, some of it is applicable and might be useful to you (see link in sig). Especially check out the "considering?" musing.