Barbarian is up!!!

[Stalker0]

I'm still not convinced that a Barb is doing all that much more damage then a Ranger or a Rogue.

Thinking about it more I wonder if I jumped the gun a bit. That's what happens when you go with the gut instead of the hard math I'll have to take a harder look at the math to see how they all compare.

Just for a quick look, let's compare a barb with a bow ranger (as I think they are the best rangers personally). Barb with 19 strength, Ranger with 19 dex at 1st level. Since the barb needs a feat to match the AC of the ranger, let's give the ranger improved quarry as a feat.

Twin Strike vs Howling Strike, and we will give the barb a great axe to keep the numbers even.

60% hit chance

Barb: 9.24
Ranger: 11.58
Edit: Fighter 9.35 (greataxe, reaping strike, +1 to hit, weapon focus feat).

Now I did estimate the crit work on twin strike a little bit, so that means the ranger's damage is actually a little LOW. With that in mind, the ranger still holds the damage title, at least with at-wills. I should note that changing the attack chance doesn't effect the math too much, the ranger also holds a solid lead over the barb.

I will say that the crit on a barb is brutal though, average 30.8 damage because of the extra basic attack he gets. That's with an AT-WILL!!

 

[Kordeth]

That's actually a very good point.


Even though the fighter and some other classes also got dailies that works somewhat on a similar way (stances), and they don't have that kind of treatment.

EDIT: Hum, yeah, maybe that other perspective might make me change my mind...

Fighters have some Stance dailies--and about half of them are Utilities, not attacks. All of a barbarian's daily attacks are rages. The fighter has plenty of options for dealing daily-level damage and effects, the barbarian just has his rages. Forget optimization and think tactics--if your 5th-level barbarian is engaged with a powerful cold-vulnerable solo, you want to drop Frost Wolf Rage ASAP--and what happens when the fight drags on and you need to drop another daily? You don't want to lose that retaliatory cold damage. Without Rage Strike, you have to either give up your sweet cold damage or face the ugly fact of not dropping daily power damage--an ugly prospect for a striker.

It would seem to me then that the more elegant option would be to have Rages that aren't all Daily Attacks. They could be utilities, like the fighter Stances, possibly.

It just feels very sloppy to have an ability you can't use for 5 levels and that only exists to patch a problem that a weird design choice forced you to need to fix.

Allowing a barbarian to throw rage strike at 1st level is effectively giving him twice the daily power output of every other class. Rage Strike is a way to allow the barbarian to choose which ongoing rage effect he wants to keep for the current encounter while still being able to drop daily attack-caliber damage. It's actually a beautifully elegant concept and shouldn't be changed at all.

 

[SeRiAlExPeRiMeNtS]

Target: One or more creatures.
Hit: Strength vs. AC, six attacks.

It is... Realy broken, six attacks to one or more targets, two attacks in three diferent creatures is ok, 6 attacks (6w+6str) is insane.

 

[Gladius Legis]

We've been discussing this on the Character Op boards on WOTC, and the consensus we've drawn so far:

1) Rage Strike is worthless. Sorry, yes, I said it. It encourages going Nova through your daily powers, and it's not damaging enough to really be worth sacrificing more daily powers than otherwise. One idea we're tossing around is to key Rage Strike off sacrificing healing surges, instead.

2) The at-wills are poorly designed. The extra damage on the at-will becomes EXTREMELY problematic when considering Paragon Multiclassing. Who doesn't want that extra fistful of d6s on every attack? In comparison, multiclassing with other Strikers only gives extra damage for one hit (Rogue), two rounds (Ranger) or nada (Warlock). We've been talking about ways to make the Barbarian have Striker damage like the existing Strikers as a class feature, possibly when charging or bloodied.

3) Hurricane of Blades. What. The. Hell? That thing needs to be capped at three hits, tops, because as is it's a per-encounter post-errata infallible Blade Cascade on steroids. And before you bring up the Fighter's Rain of Blows, that needed to be chopped down a long time ago and two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[Rechan]

It is... Realy broken, six attacks to one or more targets, two attacks in three diferent creatures is ok, 6 attacks (6w+6str) is insane.

It's not broken because for the barb to do 6W+6, he's got to hit with all 6.

Let's compare it to the Ranger's 27th level attacks:

Death Rend: 2 attacks against one target: 4W+Str + 1d10 (if both hit) + 1d8 Quarry.
Hail of Arrows: 1W+Dex vs. EVERY ENEMY WITHIN RANGE.
Wandering Tornado: 1W+Str in Close Burst. Shift 1+Wisdom squares, make another close burst 1.

How about the Rogue?
Dance of Death: 3W+Dex in a close burst 1. If any target within the burst makes an attack against you, you can re-direct the attack to another foe.
Hurricane of Blood: 5[W]+Dex(+Str for Brutal Scoundrel).
Perfect Shot: Roll vs 3 Defenses. 4[W]+Dex + 1W if you hit two defenses + Stunned if you hit all three.

The Warlock's 27:
Hellfire Curse: 5d10+Con (+Int if Infernal) damage.
The others are less damage, more effecters.

So I don't really see what makes six attacks at 1W so broken.

 

[I'm A Banana]

It's actually a beautifully elegant concept and shouldn't be changed at all.

I don't consider an ability that I get at a level that I can't use to be beautiful or elegant.

It's like giving a two-year old a cookie and telling him he can't eat it until after dinner.

You GAVE HIM THE COOKIE, and you don't EXPECT HIM TO EAT IT?! Why didn't you just wait to give him the cookie in the first place?

Feels unfair. Feels ugly. Feels like a kludge.

I won't deny that there needs to be a way to get milage out of a second daily at higher levels, I just think that awarding that way at 1st level when he can't use it is very frustrating.

Allowing a barbarian to throw rage strike at 1st level is effectively giving him twice the daily power output of every other class. Rage Strike is a way to allow the barbarian to choose which ongoing rage effect he wants to keep for the current encounter while still being able to drop daily attack-caliber damage.

...and the better option, in my mind, would be to make it so daily attacks aren't all "rages," so that he can get daily attack-caliber damage without using a kludge.

 

[Kordeth]

I don't consider an ability that I get at a level that I can't use to be beautiful or elegant.

Well, on that we'll just have to disagree.

It's like giving a two-year old a cookie and telling him he can't eat it until after dinner.

You GAVE HIM THE COOKIE, and you don't EXPECT HIM TO EAT IT?! Why didn't you just wait to give him the cookie in the first place?

Flawed analogy, because the two-year-old already has a cookie, and so do all his two-year-old friends. Giving this two-year-old a second cookie wouldn't be fair to the other two year olds. Rage Strike is more like giving a syringe of insulin to a diabetic with a cookie, so that when he eats his second cookie after dinner (along with, once again, all his little two-year-old friends) he doesn't go into a diabetic coma and die.

 

[Gladius Legis]

It's not broken because for the barb to do 6W+6, he's got to hit with all 6.

Let's compare it to the Ranger's 27th level attacks:

Death Rend: 2 attacks against one target: 4W+Str + 1d10 (if both hit) + 1d8 Quarry.

Hail of Arrows: 1W+Dex vs. EVERY ENEMY WITHIN RANGE.

Wandering Tornado: 1W+Str in Close Burst. Shift 1+Wisdom squares, make another close burst 1.

It's not just that, though. 6 attacks means 6 TIMES you're adding STATIC BONUSES. And that's not just the ability modifier. It's also things like Weapon Focus, Power Attack and the many sources of power bonuses, item bonuses and untyped bonuses (Kensei or Pit Fighter, anyone?) in the game. PER HIT.

 

[Rechan]

It's not just that, though. 6 attacks means 6 TIMES you're adding STATIC BONUSES. And that's not just the ability modifier. It's also things like Weapon Focus, Power Attack and the many sources of power bonuses, item bonuses and untyped bonuses (Kensei or Pit Fighter, anyone?) in the game. PER HIT.

I don't see that as broken.

 

[Baumi]

I think the Rage-At-Will is ment to spent the rage (so you are no longer in that "stance") you are in, instead of expending another Daily.

So if you are raging you gain your typical bonuses from that daily until you decide to put your whole (leftover) rage into one strike but are exhausted afterwards (rage ended).

This would make more sense IMHO since you could use it from level 1 onward and would give you a meaningfull tactical choice (much damage now or rage bonuses for a few rounds more...).