Official posts on DDM changes

[MerricB]

Just redonning my hat of DDM News Guy for a moment, here are a few posts of interest:

Press Releases
Original Announcement of Changes to DDM Line

Scott Rouse's Posted Explansion

Messageboard Posts
Scott Rouse (Questioner in italics)
Ok, for real now: what about buying on Amazon? How this will be random for people who live far from FLGS? How can we know what is the "visible" figure?

Each pack will have it's own SKU # so you'll know you are buying the troll vs the giant.

Scott Rouse
And how very lame by WotC not to announce it by themselfs, but just after somebody posted it earlier.

This was copy and pasted from my article before it went live and was never meant to be a customer service response.

Scott Rouse
Is buying by the case still an option? Also, how many different "visible" creatures will there be per set?

Yes. There will be assortment cases with even dist of visbles and bricks cases with all the same visible so stores can restock.

8 visibles per set.

Andy Collins
So 4th edition killed DDM skirmish

Actually, as Scott mentions in his post, we've been seeing drops in skirmish play since 2006--more than a year before 4E and the new D&D Miniatures ruleset were even announced, much less published.

Whether or not the change to a new ruleset hastened or slowed the decline is impossible to know, but I believe that we'd have been in exactly the same situation regardless of that change, whether a few months ago or a few months from now.

Nobody here is happy about having to end skirmish support. We'd far prefer it if the skirmish game were a thriving, growing entity, allowing us to continue to support it with a profitable line of game accessories and events.

But since that's not the reality we're living in, we're just trying to make the best possible decisions from a list of imperfect options.

Andy Collins

I appreciate your frustration.

I've been on the other side of these kinds of announcements before--favorite TV shows or comics cancelled, anticipated game products shelved, etc.--and it sucks. In no way do I mean to minimize the anger and disappointment you're feeling.

That said, I feel it necessary to provide further explanation regarding some of the points you've raised.

First of all, please understand that all the anecdotal evidence that you've seen about people "warming up" to the game simply has not translated into more players in sanctioned events or more sales--the only two metrics that we can reliably track.

By the time Demonweb comes out in November, we'll have been publishing and strongly supporting the new game for nearly a full year (remember, the new rules were posted in January), including three expansions and a number of restatted sets plus a raft of online articles supporting the game, all the while watching play and sales numbers continue to dwindle rather than grow.

There were some voices who pushed for us to keep on with business as usual, but we had too many reasons to believe that that choice would simply delay the inevitable rather than result in a miraculous revival.

Ultimately, we believed that the decision came down to "do something different now, or do something different later when the business is in even worse shape than it is now." Given those options, I feel we made the best call from a number of imperfect options.

WOTC- explain why customers should have faith in your entity in anyway after these actions. Specifically, why should us as customers buy and get involved with this new product line in 2009 after having taken this action with a product (2.0) you just released in 2007?

Y'know, I've seen this argument come up a lot over the years, and I just don't buy it. Exactly what are you supposed to "have faith" in?

That we'll produce great-looking minis you can use in your RPG, as we've announced?

Or that we'll continue to produce minis in this manner forever and ever, regardless of changing economic realities of the business model?

We took the best swing at the skirmish game that we knew how to take. By all means, be frustrated that the game only lasted 5+ years instead of 10 or 20. We're frustrated too. But we also know that we can't keep pushing the rock uphill.

Nothing is forever. Any expectation that the debut of a new game (or TV show, or comic series, or brand of dog food) also includes an implicit promise that it'll be supported ad infinitum is simply unreasonable.

All we can keep doing is making games & accessories that we believe are worth you, the customer, paying for. Enough folks told us (by their absence) that the current model of D&D Miniatures didn't meet that criteria that we had to make a change.

Something else I am curious about as well....
How difficult would it be for WOTC to stat these minis for 2.0 Skirmish and just post the PDFs for them? Not print actual cards? Was this option ever on the table at all as a means to retain this demographic of players that play Skrimish exclusively?

Yes, it was absolutely discussed. Many times. By many people, myself included.

While the numbers aren't trivial, it's not about how many hours or dollars it costs to produce the online stats. Ultimately, this is a simple zero-sum equation.

Every minute that a designer, developer, editor, typesetter, graphic designer, or web specialist spends getting a set of stats to the website is a minute they're not spending on another product.

If those minis stats are going to make the company more money than that other product, it might well be a good idea.

But if I can use those folks on a different, more profitable project--say, a D&D sourcebook, or an RPG-focused minis product--I'm obligated as a responsible member of WotC management to support their reassignment.

Yup, that's cold and heartless. But any other decision leads to me AND those folks looking for new jobs when the company's bad business practices leads to layoffs or bankruptcy. I'm not particularly interested in exploring that eventuality.

I realize there's going to be a lot of venting on this topic over the coming days, weeks, and months. I'm not trying to stop people from being frustrated. I'm just trying to provide a little more illumination behind the extremely difficult decisions we've made about this line over the past few months, and I hope that's helpful.

 

[MerricB]

Reading through the hordelings.com thread now....

Peter Lee
The decision to not have skirmish cards in the boosters was made a few months ago. There were other discussions going on about other methods to support the game, and that decision was made relatively recently. It wasn't decided until a day or two ago that there would be no skirmish stats going forward in an alternate distribution method.

 

[MerricB]

Dave Christ
So I've gotten a few emails so far (figure the post goes up the second I logoff a computer).

DDXP will have DDM tourneys. From my understanding the last sanctioned ones.

We will have a limited championship using Demonweb. We will have the standard $5,000 prize pool for the winners. Win some cash and be the last champion standing. There are no qualifiers and is open to all. It will start Friday at 5pm and run 3 rounds that night, 6 rounds on Saturday, and final 8 on Sunday. Multiple rebuilds during those rounds.

It will end early enough on Saturday to allow a community draft if the community wants it. I will make sure everything is there to make it happen out of my personal show budget as long as somebody can run it.

We will have other events spread around the championship and I will be working with my DDM staff on a schedule over the next week.

 

[MerricB]

Stephen Schubert
A few years back, I decided I wanted to use minis on my table, to help illustrate my game. I picked up some assorted metal, learned to paint, all that sort of stuff. Picked up Chainmail. Then Chainmail was canceled - in its place was to be a new, randomized, pre-painted minis game.

I hadn't bought into clix because they didn't look enough like D&D to me, and I didn't like the random model. But pre-painted was definitely a draw. Wasn't sold on the randomized until I bought a few Harbinger starters and boosters at 75% off one day when a local WotC store was going under. Within a week I was placing an order from Gameoutfitter, and within a month I'd found maxminis. I only got a dozen or so trades done there before I had to stop, as my on-the-side freelancing had turned itself into a full-time gig, working on D&D.

Over the last 4 years the DDM game has been part of what I did. While I came on after the game's inception, shortly after I was hired I began to spend time on the minis development team. I started working with Rob Heinsoo and Mike Donais, and stuck with the team and the many other contributors that stayed on for a set or for a block of sets. With Rob, I rewrote the rules twice - once with Wardrums, and once with DoD2. I learned about not only the game, but also about organized play, plastics production, art direction, marketing and brand direction, and fan interaction -- all because of the DDM game.

I also got to know many of the members of the DDM community. This community is special - I really mean that. It's amazing to have a group of players that not only can understand and play the game at a high level, but that are also welcoming and encouraging to new players. The community drafts at WF/XP and GenCon were the best times I've had playing games - and the prize pools always showed how much that community cares about the game and each other.

The recent announcement, and the decision that led to the announcement, does make me sad. I'm glad to have been part of the product that was able to entertain so many of you for a few years... I just wish it could have been a few years more.

Scott Rouse
Roleplayers significantly out number skirmish players. Many roleplayers don't buy mini at this time.

Is it really that much adding DDM Stats for the minis?

Yes, it is significant. If we could include the stats and make it work for the business we would do that.

Not that I care much though, to me it's all good news as I'll be finally getting a couple minis for my games.

So are you a potential new minis customer?

 

[Treebore]

Hmmm... It took many more years then I would like, but I am glad my refusal to buy their mini's finally got some response. I'm still buying only Reaper and other metal minis though. I wonder if WOTC will finally see things completely my way in another 5 years?


Yeah, I doubt it too.

 

[dm4hire]

I was discussing this on my local gaming group's mailing list, venting about the power cards, but an interesting observation occured to me while doing it. I think the biggest downfall to DDM was the focus of the game. If you look at other miniature games on the market their biggest success is the lure of the factions and the story behind them that lends to spun off RPG material. I'm namely referring to Warhammer products and others along that line. Historical games have their own market from that stand point so tend to be exempt from a fantasy related miniature game.

The factions for DDM where all wrong. Basing them on alignment and subtypes like that didn't put much believability into it, not to mention most of the skirmishes were related to dungeon settings; made it rather boring.

One of the largest complaints I know of was that people wanted to buy large bulks of a specific monster or race. Players wanted five, ten, 20, even 50 or more of say orcs or skeletons. The most common opponents adventurers ran into. The random market limits that objective and the secondary market is free to set prices as they wish.

A revamp of Skirmish would have to change over to a format that would appease both miniature gamers as well as RPG players. WotC actually has the perfect in which would draw both markets. Birthright. The campaign world was originally geared for large scale battles, kingdom control, and individual heroes running around all at the same time. Relaunching the miniature game under the Birthright banner would allow WotC to cater to both markets. They could sell individual heroes, miscellaneous monster packs, and full out army sets for the different factions that fought within the world. There were plenty of monster types in the Gorgon's army. Books could be rolled out that present the world in both mini and rpg format, if not both in one shot. Revamp the world, give each faction unique aspects and reasons for fighting, and give enough history to allow someone to take interest in it. The important thing about using Birthright or a similiar setting is that it would give the mini game what it really lacked, back story with meaning and purpose.

 

[justanobody]

Don't forget another failing of miniature games today. Space.

Not every town that has gamers have lots of space with rising costs and less profits stores are dwindling.

The amount of space taken up by a game of DDM, Hero Clix, etc for the minor minis games could support 2 games played of a CCG.

For other minis games such as Warhammer the game could take up the space of 4 games of CCGs.

The CCGs cost les and people will buy a pack quicker than someone picking up the latest Army Box for Warhmmer, or booster of another mini game.

Also the overhead to keep minis in stock is greater than CCGs. Not only shelf space, but cost and profit margins as well. CCGs make more profit due to mark-up than minis.

WotC really shot itself in the foot with anything it did with DDM. They are their own worse competitor in the market with Magic vs DDM for the reasons listed above.

This is not really a good time for a minis market at all. Also consider how green the minis are. Magic cards used to be mostly printed in Germany, and now I think they are done in the US. D&D minis are all made in China. While the cost to produce may be lower the carbon footprint created by them being made overseas adds extra cost to the minis in how much it takes to ship back to the US. Of course this means that prices to ship them home increased as fuel costs did.

So while the game and DDM 2.0 itself was a bit harmful to itself, there are a lot of other factors that people normally don't see or notice right away.

The reduced packaging size of 2.0 helped cut the cost and carbon footprint a bit, as well as shelf space, but still the minis take so much space to play in stores.

So while the game change itself was not that welcomed, tournaments were affected by the other factors as well and how many people could fit, and store owners having to decide on having half as many people playing a lower profit game, or twice as many people playing a higher profit game. This affected tournaments in turn which affected sales and recruitment into the game after some had already left because the change to 2.0.

 

[Fabio Andrea Rossi]

A romantic view on D&D and DDM

My two cents...

To tell the truth, I never was into the DDM game, I liked its flavor but I never found the time to dedicate to another fantasy game thing.
Yet, I did appreciate the minis for RPG purposes, and I did appreciate very much the really really low prices of the minis.
I did not appreciate, as a DM, the randomness of the minis, because as a DM I do not like some kind of monsters and never use them, and I ended up having many unuseful minis, while missing and having to buy at high prices on secondary markets the minis I really wanted.

All of the most interesting and favourite monsters (mind flayers, beholders...you know them, they are your old time friends too) were at least rare, which meant that either you had to spend hundreds of dollars (well, euros) on random miniatures to get those needed pieces or you had to resort to secondary market, and if you scan ebay you'll find that, while there are some cool minis at low prices, most spectacular monsters have prices higher than 15 dollars each (one single mini).

When 4ed came out, with all the reliance on the mins (a reliance I'm not totally into: I'd have preferred Wotc came out with some way to play at least minor combats without resorting to battlemaps. i know I can make this up, but I'd had preferred to have this done by professional designers), many people debated the need of non random minis, for pcs, for main monsters, for common ones.

It was even stated that this was some kind of "right", considered the new heavily mini aspect of the game.

Now, Wotc went just in that direction, and I can't wait to but that Beholder Hive mother, I will finally choose and buy what I need, and what I bought from ebay before.

So, as a D&D rpg gamer I plaud to this choice.
I do understand the grievance of the DDM players (even if, like 3 or 3.5 users, I do think there's a lot of good material to still be found: I bought a PS2 years later its release to be able to choos a ton of great games at low price) , but I'm not a DDM player and finally also people like me can find in DDM what they were looking for.

Considering that this position no later than a couple of months ago was a common one, I guess that the internet ramblings will happen whatever choice is made, so yes, I prefer a company making sensed choices, allowing them to produce material I like and I can choose not to buy when I don't.

It just seems unfair to me that all of the people asking for this change then are now silent.

I don't like the price increase, but it's a minor trade off, perhaps because when I was younger the only miniatures were metal unpainted Ral Partha ones, very very cool, but much more costly and much less representative of actual monsters, surely not at these prices.

I don't like all of Wotc choices (especially not the lost magic of subsystems and magic users, nor the heavy minis reliance, nor the slow paced mechanics of most monsters) but I like many others , and in my opinion it is great to have people in Wotcs actually caring enough to explain the moves they make, and I really believe that Wotc D&D team are evidently people who care about the game, a read of Races&Classes shows much dedication and love for the game, not only the multinational money grinder kind of company that is the object of much hate on many boards.

I am a long time player, I started with the old red box when in Italy nearly nobody knew the game and I think I personally introduced to the game way more than a hundred people, I do understand and agree on some of the displeasure of old gamers with the new D&D choices, but I also can't ignore the great and obviuos benefits that are being served to us, in the form of abundant good products that experienced DMs like us can model in exactely what we want.

We'll never be 100% satisfied wit another imagination's work, that's why we are the Dms.

Now, if only that GSL was made such to allow third party to give their support to the game like in the past, that would be perfect...


Sorry if I divagated a bit!

 

[JoeGKushner]

Hmmm... It took many more years then I would like, but I am glad my refusal to buy their mini's finally got some response. I'm still buying only Reaper and other metal minis though. I wonder if WOTC will finally see things completely my way in another 5 years?


Yeah, I doubt it too.

As they already tried metal, I doubt it.

Best scenario? And I do mean best, is that WoTC gives Reaper a license.

 

[dm4hire]

Or hopefully some other company might jump on it under the GSL.