How about a deadline to WotC?

[xechnao]

"...this used to be free, why should we have to subscribe to DDI to get this kind of quality online content..." since DDI went live.

Because they are conditioned of a situation it did not advertise that they would have to pay for it in the future (I am talking about the 3.x Wotc D&D site).

 

[El Mahdi]

A behavioural trait often displayed by children; most people grow out of it by the time they reach adulthood, but some never shake it.

Perhaps you should address that to the person or company who wrote this:

Q: Is there an ethical reason to support Open Gaming?

A: In this writer's opinion, yes there is. It has been an established feature of RPGs since their inception that they should be used to create new content. Prior to the advent of widespread Open Game licenses, there was no practical way for that kind of material to be legally and widely distributed.​

Open Gaming is recognition that your natural human right to free speech is protected and enhanced. The Open Game system is a way for the game publishing industry to finally deliver on the basic promises made by the very first RPGs; that individuals should be free to copy, modify and distribute their own creative works derived from the game systems they have acquired.​

How are these mutually exclusive? Morrus was speaking about entitlement, your quote is talking about ethics and freedom of speech, both of which are things that are not mutually exclusive. Without getting into politics, US Constitutional Law and Copyright Law aren't contradicting eachother. Open Gaming is a good thing, good for the game, good for publishers, and good for the IP holder. But just as "Free Speech" doesn't mean you can say whatever you want, whenever you want - placing restrictions on the use of an IP or Brand Name, in order to protect the quality and integrity of said IP or Brand, is not unreasonable.

"...that individuals should be free to copy, modify and distribute their own creative works derived from the game systems they have acquired." - I believe this is exactly what WoTC is attempting to do for 4E (and will forever be allowed to do with 3E - that hasn't, isn't, and won't change), but they do also have a right, and responsibility (to shareholders) to protect their IP from errosion of quality and standards (especially moral standards). It's a sad fact, but there are some who won't adhere to common decency and behavior unless there are rules in place to make them. I'm sure Scott and WoTC will get the troublesome business aspects of the GSL ironed out, and (most) 3pp will be satisfied and content with it. They are business people also, and I'm sure they understand why and what WoTC is doing.

And just to be clear, the GSL is not the OGL. WoTC was under absolutely no obligation to release 4E under the Open Gaming concept. If they had, I'd be saying that's cool - but that doesn't mean that WoTC has done anything wrong or unethical by not doing this. It is completely their right and perogative, also granted and protected by Law, the same as Free Speech.



As to Morrus's quote - OUCH!

Too true, but OUCH!​

 

[carmachu]

WotC is a business. Gross benefits aren't important. Net benefits are.

That's like saying 4E had $1 million in sales. So it's been a success. (Reality: not if it cost you $2 million to produce).

What did it cost them to get these benefits is the question. That's probably even harder to quantify than the benefits.

Well here's a net benefit:

bunch of us really werent doing much...Till Ptolus came out. Then? We wanted to play alot more. And some of us picked up books we needed for our characters: I myself needed complete adventurer, complete divine and complete champion.

I would have NEVER bought the Complete Champion if I wasnt playing in Ptolus. Yes its all andecedol evidence. But I cant be alone there.....

 

[carmachu]

Does it? Are you talking about 4E products? Products that would not otherwise exist without a GSL? At least, for publishers not willing to go the 'copyright route'.

Or are you talking about the 3E products that may have to be discontinued, that you have had time to purchase already? This would be like saying 3E interferes with your ability to buy 2E products.

What do you mean exactly?

Both actually.

Face it, wotc's adventures as a whole, arent very good. H1 was bad no matter which way you cut it, I havent bothered with H2 or H3 as a result. Their track record in adventures throughout 3.x was about the same with a couple of exceptions.

So nothing really good there. Yes there is the copyright route, but frankly I dont know how much I would want to see good, quality 3PP companies test that one. Hasbro isnt exactly forgiving......

As for thrid.....2nd sucked. Dont care. Personally I dont like watching Wotc jerk people's chain like they have throughout the entire GSL process. And jerk the chain they have.

 

[Renshai]

Both actually.

Face it, wotc's adventures as a whole, arent very good. H1 was bad no matter which way you cut it, I havent bothered with H2 or H3 as a result. Their track record in adventures throughout 3.x was about the same with a couple of exceptions.

So nothing really good there. Yes there is the copyright route, but frankly I dont know how much I would want to see good, quality 3PP companies test that one. Hasbro isnt exactly forgiving......

As for thrid.....2nd sucked. Dont care. Personally I dont like watching Wotc jerk people's chain like they have throughout the entire GSL process. And jerk the chain they have.

Absolutely YOUR opinion. Don't try and put power behind your arguments by stating that something subjective, is indeed fact.

I happen to have quite enjoyed Keep on the Shadowfell, and after reading the rest of the released adventures I'm more excited than ever to be running D&D for my group. I've gone so far as saying that I find that these adventures will join a special place in my gaming nostalgia, joining time honored adventures like White Plume Mountain and other 1E classics.

There are many others that feel this way as well, so I'm sorry but you can't claim your opinion is a fact that supports your point of view. And not everyone feels like WotC is "jerking the chain". They are trying to come up with the best possible solution for them as a company, and I don't fault them for that one bit. Until they get it worked out I get plenty of material from DDI. I did, however, just get Goodman Games class book, which has some fabulous classes, so not all 3PP are suffering. Goodman Games seems to be doing just fine with what they've got.

 

[El Mahdi]

Hmmm...wow. Ok, so am I "childish" if the 7 Eleven I have been going to for years suddenly decides that my 1.99 Big Gulp now has an added surcharge of .25 cents for the cup... and I am not happy about that and feel it is wrong since the cups have been free up until now? Am I somehow more mature because I just accept it and pay it? . . .

No.


Would someone be LESS MATURE if they got angry at 7-Eleven because of their feelings of entitlement?

Unequivocally, YES!


Freedom of speech, and freedom in general, is being able to state that you don't like the price increase or surcharge, and exercise your freedom by no longer buying the product. However, Freedom of Speech is an ADVANCED concept - a concept that is not just a blank check but REQUIRES the responsibility of the one speaking.

Declaring you are entitled to something for which you are not entitled is the very definition of childishness, immaturity, and just being spoiled. For those who feel that this is how the world and life should be treating them - refer to the immortal words of Wesley/The Dread Pirate Roberts; "Get used to disappointment".

 

[Fifth Element]

Well here's a net benefit:

bunch of us really werent doing much...Till Ptolus came out. Then? We wanted to play alot more. And some of us picked up books we needed for our characters: I myself needed complete adventurer, complete divine and complete champion.

I would have NEVER bought the Complete Champion if I wasnt playing in Ptolus. Yes its all andecedol evidence. But I cant be alone there.....

That's not a net benefit, that's a gross benefit. You're leaving something very important out of the equation: how much did it cost WotC to get those additional sales from the OGL? I don't mean out-of-pocket, I mean lost potential sales from 3PP copying the SRD wholesale and releasing stand-alone products.

No one can measure that, and that's why I say we'll never know if the OGL actually benefited WotC as a company.

 

[carmachu]

Not allowing something that they have no obligation to allow, is not interference. Your statement implies that you, and 3pp publishers, have an entitlement to this. You (and they) do not. If they want to grant the entitlement to do this, they can (and have). They also have the right to dictate the conditions upon which this entitlement is granted. That is their right and THEY ARE ENTITLED TO IT.

True. But I'm under no obligation to give them money either. They may want to think on that when wondering about expectations.

They are not trying to reverse the OGL, since this is categorically not possible to do. It would be an exercise in futility. They have absolutely no legal grounds or leverage by with to do this. They have simply moved on to a new product line, one for which they have no obligation to make open content. Whether you or others want it to be open, or just less closed, is irrelevent. No longer printing material under the OGL is their, and every other publishers, choice. It is not an attack on, nor a reversing of, the OGL.

I'd argue that you would be wrong in that regard. Every action or inaction on the GSL seems to be mroe inline with them to cut the OGL off at the knees at ever turn. The language seems very clear at the first run at the GSL.

Your right it is their choice. Just as its mine to take my money and busines elsewhere, and convince as many as I can by explaining their actions as I see it.

 

[Fifth Element]

Both actually.

Face it, wotc's adventures as a whole, arent very good. H1 was bad no matter which way you cut it, I havent bothered with H2 or H3 as a result. Their track record in adventures throughout 3.x was about the same with a couple of exceptions.

So nothing really good there. Yes there is the copyright route, but frankly I dont know how much I would want to see good, quality 3PP companies test that one. Hasbro isnt exactly forgiving......

As for thrid.....2nd sucked. Dont care. Personally I dont like watching Wotc jerk people's chain like they have throughout the entire GSL process. And jerk the chain they have.

Why are you bringing comments about your perception of quality of certain products into this discussion? It's completely irrelevant. If you have a right to something, you have a right to it, regardless of its quality or lack thereof.

 

[Imaro]

No.


Would someone be LESS MATURE if they got angry at 7-Eleven because of their feelings of entitlement?

Unequivocally, YES!

And this is where we disagree... there is nothing inherently childish about getting angry about something one feels is owed to him or her, whether they are correct or wrong. It is in how one handles those feelings that speaks to maturity... venting those feelings on a message board is not childish (though I would argue trying to tell someone how they should feel about something is.) ... burning one's 4e books, yeah that might be childish.

And as far as feelings of entitlement... Who exactly fostered these "feelings". Shouldn't they have a certain amount of responsibility for the effect of years of conditioning those feelings, only to abruptly end them? wait, no it's the fans and supporters who are wrong... for having exepectations (created by WotC in order to potentially sell more product) ok, whatever. You know, IMHO..it's sorta like a divorce where a spouse who doesn't work is awarded money because they've become accustomed to a certain lifestyle. Wait those judges and people must be childish too...