Rel
Liquid Awesome
That's ok. So do most people.
D&D 4E How I Fixed 4e
- Thread starter Rel
- Start date
That's ok. So do most people.
Do you mean any particular arcane/divine class?
Another wound idea
Nice work all around. I agree that there is the danger of a 'death spiral' in adding wound penalties as much as I like the added roleplaying potential. Instead of penalties to all actions, how about just to things that require extra effort? Say, daily and encounter powers or maneuvers that require action points or untrained skill use. At-will and trained abilities could be argued to be more reflexive, and wouldn't be affected. This would simulate the dazed and woozy condition following a near-death experience, even if you manage to heal the damage.
A melee feat/power to shrug off the a wound or two would likely be appropriate. Otherwise the guys who are supposed to be take a beating and shrug it off may find themselves unfairly imposed upon. Looking over the posts on the unfavorable risk to reward (vis a vis damage output) that rogues get relative to rangers (especially archers), I'd hate to up their risk further without some way to mitigate it or a buff to balance it.
Nice work all around. I agree that there is the danger of a 'death spiral' in adding wound penalties as much as I like the added roleplaying potential. Instead of penalties to all actions, how about just to things that require extra effort? Say, daily and encounter powers or maneuvers that require action points or untrained skill use. At-will and trained abilities could be argued to be more reflexive, and wouldn't be affected. This would simulate the dazed and woozy condition following a near-death experience, even if you manage to heal the damage.
A melee feat/power to shrug off the a wound or two would likely be appropriate. Otherwise the guys who are supposed to be take a beating and shrug it off may find themselves unfairly imposed upon. Looking over the posts on the unfavorable risk to reward (vis a vis damage output) that rogues get relative to rangers (especially archers), I'd hate to up their risk further without some way to mitigate it or a buff to balance it.
ravenheart
Explorer
Love your ideas Rel; in fact, I've shamelessly stolen most of them for my campaign!
Also, I've been toying with the idea of a wound/injury system based on the disease track. Call me weird, but I kind of like the disease track.
Anyway, what I was thinking was something along the lines of this:
Critical Wound
A particularly devastating attack seems to have ruptured something.
Attack: Special; if a creature suffers critical damage, roll a saving throw after the encounter. Add a cumulative -2 penalty to the saving throw for each critical attack suffered during the encounter. Failure results in a Critical Wound.
Endurance improve DC 12+level of the attacker, maintain DC 9+level, worsen DC 8+level or lower.
Special: If the target suffers additional critical attacks while suffering from Critical Wounds, the target must make a saving throw after each encounter as with the initial attack, or immediately worsen.
Track:
Cured
Initial: The target loses a healing surge that cannot be regained until cured.
Secondary: The target loses all current action points and cannot gain action points from milestones.
Final Stage: The target is slowed. The target gains Lethal Injury.
Lethal Injury
The pain is unbearable, and you are bleeding internally.
Attack: Special; if a creature falls below 0 hitpoints due to critical damage or suffers the final stage of Critical Wounds, make a saving throw after the encounter. Add a cumulative -2 penalty to the saving throw for each failed death saving throw. Failure results in a Lethal Injury.
Endurance improve DC 14+level of the attacker, maintain DC 11+level, worsen DC 10+level or lower.
Special: Whenever the target fails a death saving throw while suffering from Lethal Injury, the target must make a saving throw after each encounter as with the initial attack, or immediately worsen.
Track:
Cured
Initial: Before the target attempts to use a daily power, it must spend a healing surge. If the target has no surges remaining, it takes damage equal to it's healing surge value.
Secondary: As with the initial effect, but using a daily power requires 2 healing surges, and using an encounter requires 1 healing surge.
Final Stage: The target dies.
------------------------
So, any thoughts? TPK? Too clumsy, perhaps?
EDIT: Realised that I'd forgotten to add any mechanism to reverse this condition other than making skill-checks (such as a ritual). Feel free to come up with something!
Also, I've been toying with the idea of a wound/injury system based on the disease track. Call me weird, but I kind of like the disease track.
Anyway, what I was thinking was something along the lines of this:
Critical Wound
A particularly devastating attack seems to have ruptured something.
Attack: Special; if a creature suffers critical damage, roll a saving throw after the encounter. Add a cumulative -2 penalty to the saving throw for each critical attack suffered during the encounter. Failure results in a Critical Wound.
Endurance improve DC 12+level of the attacker, maintain DC 9+level, worsen DC 8+level or lower.
Special: If the target suffers additional critical attacks while suffering from Critical Wounds, the target must make a saving throw after each encounter as with the initial attack, or immediately worsen.
Track:
Cured
Initial: The target loses a healing surge that cannot be regained until cured.
Secondary: The target loses all current action points and cannot gain action points from milestones.
Final Stage: The target is slowed. The target gains Lethal Injury.
Lethal Injury
The pain is unbearable, and you are bleeding internally.
Attack: Special; if a creature falls below 0 hitpoints due to critical damage or suffers the final stage of Critical Wounds, make a saving throw after the encounter. Add a cumulative -2 penalty to the saving throw for each failed death saving throw. Failure results in a Lethal Injury.
Endurance improve DC 14+level of the attacker, maintain DC 11+level, worsen DC 10+level or lower.
Special: Whenever the target fails a death saving throw while suffering from Lethal Injury, the target must make a saving throw after each encounter as with the initial attack, or immediately worsen.
Track:
Cured
Initial: Before the target attempts to use a daily power, it must spend a healing surge. If the target has no surges remaining, it takes damage equal to it's healing surge value.
Secondary: As with the initial effect, but using a daily power requires 2 healing surges, and using an encounter requires 1 healing surge.
Final Stage: The target dies.
------------------------
So, any thoughts? TPK? Too clumsy, perhaps?
EDIT: Realised that I'd forgotten to add any mechanism to reverse this condition other than making skill-checks (such as a ritual). Feel free to come up with something!
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Pbartender
First Post
So, any thoughts? TPK? Too clumsy, perhaps?
EDIT: Realised that I'd forgotten to add any mechanism to reverse this condition other than making skill-checks (such as a ritual). Feel free to come up with something!
Going along with the Disease template for a painful wound...
...Numbers and wording may have to be adjusted.
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Sounds pretty cool to me, modulo the x2 cost on healing
I've found that the powers system is pretty good, but I cannot abide the flavor intended for most of the powers. The "godlasers" meme is, in fact, a pretty terrible one.
That said, spiritual warfare that has physical effect on ones foe makes good sense; take care how you describe things and you'll be fine
I agree with you. I don't think that there are words in the English language to adequately describe how terrible the paladin's divine challenge and laser beam shooting clerics are.
The_Universe
First Post
Re: Action Points
I noticed above that you seemed a little concerned that, by discarding the milestone system already part of the core 4e rules, your players might end up with fewer action points than they might otherwise have gotten.
I think the oWoD system you describe is a fine way to get a few more points flowing; HEX handles things in largely the same way, but relabels the idea as "Motivations and Flaws." Mutants and Masterminds does much the same, but lumps all those disparate ideas into "Complications."
One thing you might also consider stealing from M&M is the "Haha I totally screwed you over" action point. If you need to fudge the dice on behalf of a foe, trap, or other situation (and against the PCs), reward them with action point for the trouble. This removes some of the guilt when you're trying to keep the main bad guy in a finale alive (for example), and gives the players some motivation to "play along," if necessary. It's one of the single most elegant "narrative control" elements in M&M, and one that I don't think would seriously unbalance 4e in any way.
I noticed above that you seemed a little concerned that, by discarding the milestone system already part of the core 4e rules, your players might end up with fewer action points than they might otherwise have gotten.
I think the oWoD system you describe is a fine way to get a few more points flowing; HEX handles things in largely the same way, but relabels the idea as "Motivations and Flaws." Mutants and Masterminds does much the same, but lumps all those disparate ideas into "Complications."
One thing you might also consider stealing from M&M is the "Haha I totally screwed you over" action point. If you need to fudge the dice on behalf of a foe, trap, or other situation (and against the PCs), reward them with action point for the trouble. This removes some of the guilt when you're trying to keep the main bad guy in a finale alive (for example), and gives the players some motivation to "play along," if necessary. It's one of the single most elegant "narrative control" elements in M&M, and one that I don't think would seriously unbalance 4e in any way.
Rel
Liquid Awesome
I've done a fair bit of thinking (with the benefit of coffee this time) and I think that I'm going to start off my new campaign using the last system that I'd settled on (Healing Surges only healing half, etc.) because I want to trend toward simplicity rather than simulation (which I think the Disease Track idea does better). However we're going into this with open minds and may opt to change it if we feel like it's not getting the job done.
I very much appreciate all the alternative ideas that have been pitched. They have been valuable food for thought and I may yet adopt some version of them before this is all over.
That's an interesting idea. I'm not entirely against it but I do think it works better in M&M (or 3e) than it would in a 4e D&D game. I'll try and explain why:
M&M has a lot of "save or die" effects that can short circuit a climactic scene if the BBEG fails badly early. This also lets the GM design things so that the BBEG isn't vastly more powerful than the PC's, thus making his own save or die effects likely to take a hero out of the fight early (which I think is as undesirable if you want everybody to participate in a major, climactic battle).
In 4e D&D, there are almost no save or die effects that the PC's can drop on the BBEG to take them out early. If I make the BBEG a Solo then they will have plenty of HP that the PC's will have to slowly erode. Even if they roll some good crits they aren't going to take a Solo down in just a round or two. Meanwhile the BBEG's minions will be unloading their attacks on the PC's.
I think that if you throw the party Rogue an Action Point for negating his crit Sneak Attack on the BBEG then you run the risk of the PC's hitting a run of bad luck later in the combat and losing the fight. And that of course brings up the potential for bad feelings among the players like "We'd have had that guy if you hadn't blown off the Rogue's crit!" Again, in M&M the consequences of the PC's losing a fight are usually not so dire because, in most versions of the superhero genre, the BBEG isn't just going to slit their throats.
I think I'm more inclined to "let the dice fall where they may" and trust in my ability to put the PC's in over their heads from the start in order to provide them with plenty of challenge.
I very much appreciate all the alternative ideas that have been pitched. They have been valuable food for thought and I may yet adopt some version of them before this is all over.
That's an interesting idea. I'm not entirely against it but I do think it works better in M&M (or 3e) than it would in a 4e D&D game. I'll try and explain why:
M&M has a lot of "save or die" effects that can short circuit a climactic scene if the BBEG fails badly early. This also lets the GM design things so that the BBEG isn't vastly more powerful than the PC's, thus making his own save or die effects likely to take a hero out of the fight early (which I think is as undesirable if you want everybody to participate in a major, climactic battle).
In 4e D&D, there are almost no save or die effects that the PC's can drop on the BBEG to take them out early. If I make the BBEG a Solo then they will have plenty of HP that the PC's will have to slowly erode. Even if they roll some good crits they aren't going to take a Solo down in just a round or two. Meanwhile the BBEG's minions will be unloading their attacks on the PC's.
I think that if you throw the party Rogue an Action Point for negating his crit Sneak Attack on the BBEG then you run the risk of the PC's hitting a run of bad luck later in the combat and losing the fight. And that of course brings up the potential for bad feelings among the players like "We'd have had that guy if you hadn't blown off the Rogue's crit!" Again, in M&M the consequences of the PC's losing a fight are usually not so dire because, in most versions of the superhero genre, the BBEG isn't just going to slit their throats.
I think I'm more inclined to "let the dice fall where they may" and trust in my ability to put the PC's in over their heads from the start in order to provide them with plenty of challenge.
Pbartender
First Post
I'd keep it and use it, but in a different way...
I'd avoid using it to cheat mechincs-wise, but use for introducing plot complications that benefit the bad guys or hurt the good guys.
For example, don't use it to negate the Rogue's Sneak Attack Crit on the BBEG. Instead, let the bad guy go down, but have an influx of minion reinforcements arrive, allowing the BBEG's bodyguard to drag his lifeless body away under cover and escape. And award the PCs Action Points for letting you have the not-quite-dead-yet BBEG to escape, even though they were victorious.
In other words, use it for "It's a trap!" and "I'll get you next time!" moments.
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