Tempests destroying two-hander style?

[FrozenChrono]

Here are a few factors to consider when calculating DPR.

Combat will theoretically last 5-10 rounds, 4 rounds of which will be encounter powers, and in important fights (where damage is really gonna matter) it's likely 1 or 2 daily's will be used. That means at high levels (after levels 7 - 11) at will comparisons are basically meaningless.

There are almost no daily's for Tempest fighters

There are few encounter powers for Tempests (some levels don't have any) so they are basically sword and board fighters as far as DPR is concerned any round they can't take advantage of dual wielding.

While they do get to add all those shiny bonuses to each attack two handed fighters get to use there big [W] dice on:
Opportunity attacks
Charges
Stances (like Quicksilver Stance, and Rain of Steel)
Basic attacks granted by allies

As an added bonus Scale wearers can negate the speed penalty from heavy armor, it would take a heavy Dex investment to match their AC in hide armor.

 

[deleteme123456]

Well, it turns out there was a minor bug in my sheet.

Greatweapon fighters don't completely suck, they're just not as good as tempest fighters, but maybe they're a little better armored (but if the tempest fighter uses a double weapon and has enough dex to specialize in scale, they'll be even).

21st level at-will average damage (assumes demigod, see previous post on page 1 for more details):
Mordenkrad fighter: 24.55 [Footwork Lure, Hammer Rhythm]
Fullblade fighter: 23.10 [Footwork Lure] [24.50 with Reaping Strike]
Tempest with dual short swords: 29.63875 [Dual Strike]
Tempest with dual katar: 31.23875 [DS]
Tempest with a double sword that counts as off-hand on both ends: 32.63875 [DS]
Ranger with double sword: 39.055 [Twin Strike vs Quarry]
Ranger with double axe: 41.76 [TS]
Ranger with 2 waraxes: 44.76 [TS]
Ranger with 2 bastard swords: 41.855 [TS]
Ranger with 2 scimitars: 42.225 [TS, Scimitar Dance]

I can add some more scenarios pretty easily (the only thing that I'm trying to avoid right now is having two different weapons, because that creates a lot of extra work).

 

[deleteme123456]

Here are a few factors to consider when calculating DPR.

Combat will theoretically last 5-10 rounds, 4 rounds of which will be encounter powers, and in important fights (where damage is really gonna matter) it's likely 1 or 2 daily's will be used. That means at high levels (after levels 7 - 11) at will comparisons are basically meaningless.

There are almost no daily's for Tempest fighters

There are few encounter powers for Tempests (some levels don't have any) so they are basically sword and board fighters as far as DPR is concerned any round they can't take advantage of dual wielding.

While they do get to add all those shiny bonuses to each attack two handed fighters get to use there big [W] dice on:
Opportunity attacks
Charges
Stances (like Quicksilver Stance, and Rain of Steel)
Basic attacks granted by allies

As an added bonus Scale wearers can negate the speed penalty from heavy armor, it would take a heavy Dex investment to match their AC in hide armor.

Or they can multiclass ranger and pick up encounter powers for rangers that do use both weapons.

 

[Tony Vargas]

What a TWF vs a THF /should/ experience is a better chance to hit at least once, less damage when he only hits once, but more when he hits twice. Also pretty significant is about double the number of opportunities to crit. That's an increase in offense, to be sure. He also does less damage per hit, which means more trouble with damage resistance, and less effective OAs. OAs are a big part of the 4e fighter's 'defender' role. Add in the loss of the always-important attack bonus, and it doesn't seem particularly out of line.

Am I right in noticing that the tempest is supposed to be in light armor? His attacks are still STR-based, so that's an issue for him, right there. Maintaining AC means pumping dex relentlessly, maintiaing offense means keeping STR maximized, so less WIS for OA attack bonuses or CON for hps and certain weapon/armor feats. But, plenty of good DEX-preq weapon feats, of course... Seems like that'd be an issue, too.

 

[FrozenChrono]

Or they can multiclass ranger and pick up encounter powers for rangers that do use both weapons.

That would be the idea, but it would cost a few feats and still wouldn't address the advantage of having a big two hander for:
Opportunity attacks
Charges
Stances (like Quicksilver Stance, and Rain of Steel)
Basic attacks granted by allies

My points are:
that DPR calculations mean almost nothing
Two handed fighters still have a lot of advantages over two weapon fighters
At least this is less broken than 3.0's take a billion feats to be marginally effective at dual wielding method.

 

[FrozenChrono]

What a TWF vs a THF /should/ experience is a better chance to hit at least once, less damage when he only hits once, but more when he hits twice. Also pretty significant is about double the number of opportunities to crit. That's an increase in offense, to be sure. He also does less damage per hit, which means more trouble with damage resistance, and less effective OAs. OAs are a big part of the 4e fighter's 'defender' role. Add in the loss of the always-important attack bonus, and it doesn't seem particularly out of line.

Am I right in noticing that the tempest is supposed to be in light armor? His attacks are still STR-based, so that's an issue for him, right there. Maintaining AC means pumping dex relentlessly, maintiaing offense means keeping STR maximized, so less WIS for OA attack bonuses or CON for hps and certain weapon/armor feats. But, plenty of good DEX-preq weapon feats, of course... Seems like that'd be an issue, too.

Lighter armor. Tempests get their bonus to damage in light armor or chainmail, so a little less defense for some offense.


As a side note you only get the +1 to hit, and +1 or +2 to damage when wielding two weapons. So you don't get the bonus when wielding double weapons. This is RAW and I believe it's RAI. The double weapons are just too good to explain it any other way.

Here's the relevant book text.

Wielding a double weapon is like wielding a weapon
in each hand. The first die given in the damage column
of the table for a double weapon is for the primary (or
main) end of the weapon; the second damage die is for
the secondary (or off-hand) end. You can use either end
of a double weapon to deliver an attack unless a power
specifies a main or off-hand weapon attack.

When you wield two melee weapons you gain a +1
bonus to attack rolls with weapons that have the offhand
property.

I could see people ruling this in the other direction because it is a little vague but my interpretation is that the double weapon is like wielding a weapon in each hand when using powers, but it says nothing about abilities, or feats that key off of having two weapons.

The other part of this is that Martial Power specifically states "when you wield two melee weapons" it's not stated to treat double weapons as two weapons anywhere but in reference to powers.


Now think about the implications.

The double sword gives you a +1 to AC (to make up for what you're not getting from two weapon defense)

The double sword gives you a d8 damage on each side, which helps you out on all the important [W] stuff but still allows you to use two weapon powers.

Other off hand weapons are actually worth using!

Example: the sacrifice of a smaller damage die and lower to hit from a parrying dagger is an option because of the bonus damage, to hit, and the defensive property stacking with two weapon defense.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Am I right in noticing that the tempest is supposed to be in light armor? His attacks are still STR-based, so that's an issue for him, right there. Maintaining AC means pumping dex relentlessly, maintiaing offense means keeping STR maximized, so less WIS for OA attack bonuses or CON for hps and certain weapon/armor feats. But, plenty of good DEX-preq weapon feats, of course... Seems like that'd be an issue, too.

Not quite. The tempest gains his bonuses in light armor or chainmail. I expect chainmail to be the default choice.

And, despite the common presumption that the tempest fighter sacrifices defense for offense, he actually has better defenses than the typical 2handed weapon fighter. Chainmail=+6 armor. Double-sword defensive property +1. Two Weapon Defense (bonus feat) +1. Thus, the default AC of a tempest fighter in chain mail is 18. The default AC of a great weapon fighter is 17 (10+7 for scale armor).

The tempest fighter also has the option to go for a higher AC with light armor and maxed dex (18 starting dex +hide armor yields a base AC of 19 equal to the sword and board fighter), but I do not anticipate that happening frequently because of the attraction of getting marked scourge+Pitfighter double wisdom damage on every hit. At that point, the double sword tempest technique fighter only needs to get his starting wisdom to 15 via level bumps and from then on he will qualify for heavy blade mastery at level 21 with no further increases, leaving all of the rest for wisdom.

This also enables the tempest fighter to handily solve some of his stickiness issues with Heavy Blade Opportunity at 11th level. His single opportunity attack may be less threatening than a great weapon fighter, but dual strike is going to be more threatening--especially with Marked Scourge.

 

[Lord Sessadore]

Or they can multiclass ranger and pick up encounter powers for rangers that do use both weapons.

Meanwhile, the great weapon fighter can spend those same feats and pick up some barbarian powers, which should be more effective damage-dealers than even fighter powers (though I haven't actually reviewed the barbarian much, but if they didn't have powerful two-handed-weapon-focussed powers I would be floored).

 

[Tony Vargas]

Chainmail is some pretty inferior armor, one or two AC lost relative to Scale or Plate, spec not as good as scale. If you can start with a DEX of 16+ and boost DEX you can match/beat it with Hide, and not lose any movement, so I'd expect some of that.

And, I wouldn't compare a character with two feats invested in boosting AC to one with no such investment as 'typical.' Mind you, I don't think there's a lot of feat options in that line for the THF...

I'm really not getting a very good feel for the tempest from what I've seen. Have to see how it works out some time - when someone else plays one, I'm still having too much fun with warlords to try out the 4e fighter just yet. I have noticed the greatweapon fighter being a good thing to have on your taclord's team, though.

 

[Eldorian]

Meanwhile, the great weapon fighter can spend those same feats and pick up some barbarian powers, which should be more effective damage-dealers than even fighter powers (though I haven't actually reviewed the barbarian much, but if they didn't have powerful two-handed-weapon-focussed powers I would be floored).

Barbarian has the best encounter power in the game:

Hurricane of Blades Barbarian Attack 27
You become a tempest of steel, ripping through your foes in a horrific display of carnage.
Encounter ✦ Primal, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One or more creatures
Attack: Strength vs. AC, six attacks
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage per attack.

Which, without even working hard, deals 2d5+16 damage on each swing. More if you have more bonuses to damage of course.


As well as a very decent selection as you level up, such as

Shoulder Slam Barbarian Attack 17
You lower your shoulder into your foes, driving them across the ground.
Encounter ✦ Primal, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Primary Target: One creature
Primary Attack: Strength vs. Fortitude
Hit: 2[W] + Strength modifier damage, and you push the
target 1 square. You then shift 1 square and make a
secondary attack.
Secondary Target: One creature other than the primary target
Secondary Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage.
Special: When charging, you can use this power in place of
a melee basic attack. If you charge, you gain a bonus to the primary attack roll equal to your Constitution modifier.