Skill challenge design -- still wonky

[bert1000]

First off, I am a huge fan of the skill challenge concept despite the problems that are occuring as this concept gets further refined.

Some of the problems are pretty complicated (e.g., setting the right DCs), and some are a matter of play style (e.g., do you annouce a skill challenge, do you give out clues to the key skills, etc.).

One problem I see that keeps getting repeated in published material has me scratching my head. Shouldn't a successful skill challenge always net you a greater reward than failing one?

For example, in P1, see ecounter T1-2. **minor spoilers** You do a skill challenge where success means you find the adventure site and you get 1000xp. Failure means everyone loses a healing surge and you have a equal level combat encounter. The combat encounter gives you 3000xp, 1500gp, and a map to the adventure site. The combat encounter is not really punative. In fact, it is very likely to yield +2000xp and +1500gp vs. the skill challenge without any realy down side. The PCs may expend some resources, but there is nothing stopping them from resting before tackling the adventure site.

I just think this is poor design that keeps getting repeated (I've seen some similar in dungeon I think). Am I missing something here? Shouldn't a successful skill challenge that avoids some failure induced combat always yield at least if not more XP than the combat? (I guess the exception could be a failure combat that is say level +4 or something. Then there is a real downside to losing the challenge).

 

[justanobody]

I just think this is poor design that keeps getting repeated (I've seen some similar in dungeon I think). Am I missing something here?

No, I think the skill challenges also are a poor design and idea.

A skill challenge that is failed should not lead into combat unless it was some kind of trap, and that still is silly, and a passed one should not lead to combat in any event.

XP should be equal no matter which route you take. Door #1 has a combat and #2 has the challenge. You must pick one to get passed them, so why would the skill challenge door give less XP? You got pass the doors which was the goal, so the whole door "encounter" would be what gives the XP.

Granted in this situation you could go back and kill the monsters for XP for the fun or it, but you don't have to as you could see the other side of the doors to know you have gotten pass them.

I would still consider these doors to be a single encounter, so split the XP for both combat and skill challenge doors evenly in half and award XP for whichever one is done, and if both get done you get full XP for both.

 

[El Mahdi]

One problem I see that keeps getting repeated in published material has me scratching my head. Shouldn't a successful skill challenge always net you a greater reward than failing one?

For example, in P1, see ecounter T1-2. **minor spoilers** You do a skill challenge where success means you find the adventure site and you get 1000xp. Failure means everyone loses a healing surge and you have a equal level combat encounter. The combat encounter gives you 3000xp, 1500gp, and a map to the adventure site. The combat encounter is not really punative. In fact, it is very likely to yield +2000xp and +1500gp vs. the skill challenge without any realy down side. The PCs may expend some resources, but there is nothing stopping them from resting before tackling the adventure site.

I just think this is poor design that keeps getting repeated (I've seen some similar in dungeon I think). Am I missing something here? Shouldn't a successful skill challenge that avoids some failure induced combat always yield at least if not more XP than the combat? (I guess the exception could be a failure combat that is say level +4 or something. Then there is a real downside to losing the challenge).

I'm not arguing at all about whether skill challenges are wonky or not, I don't play 4E so I really cant say one way or the other. However, I do think the skill challenge concept is pretty good, and I may still steal some of it for use in my houseruled 3.5 game.

But isn't your example highlighting a bad adventure design rather than a bad mechanic design? Seems like the problem here is how it was utilized in an adventure, not the mechanic itself.

 

[MerricB]

One problem I see that keeps getting repeated in published material has me scratching my head. Shouldn't a successful skill challenge always net you a greater reward than failing one?

That's an excellent point, Bert. Yes, a failed Skill Challenge should probably only inflict a combat encounter worth the same XP as the successful Skill Challenge.

With any luck, adventure designers will take note.

Cheers!

 

[Harlekin]

First off, I am a huge fan of the skill challenge concept despite the problems that are occuring as this concept gets further refined.

Some of the problems are pretty complicated (e.g., setting the right DCs), and some are a matter of play style (e.g., do you annouce a skill challenge, do you give out clues to the key skills, etc.).

One problem I see that keeps getting repeated in published material has me scratching my head. Shouldn't a successful skill challenge always net you a greater reward than failing one?

For example, in P1, see ecounter T1-2. **minor spoilers** You do a skill challenge where success means you find the adventure site and you get 1000xp. Failure means everyone loses a healing surge and you have a equal level combat encounter. The combat encounter gives you 3000xp, 1500gp, and a map to the adventure site. The combat encounter is not really punative. In fact, it is very likely to yield +2000xp and +1500gp vs. the skill challenge without any realy down side. The PCs may expend some resources, but there is nothing stopping them from resting before tackling the adventure site.

I just think this is poor design that keeps getting repeated (I've seen some similar in dungeon I think). Am I missing something here? Shouldn't a successful skill challenge that avoids some failure induced combat always yield at least if not more XP than the combat? (I guess the exception could be a failure combat that is say level +4 or something. Then there is a real downside to losing the challenge).

Of course there is the downside of character death. Maybe combat resulting from a failed skill challenge should not be worth any Xp? After all, the players might have been able to avoid said combat. And the PCs still get the gold from the encounter.

 

[bert1000]

But isn't your example highlighting a bad adventure design rather than a bad mechanic design? Seems like the problem here is how it was utilized in an adventure, not the mechanic itself.

The skill challenge mechanic is wonky too in its current form (too low DCs in errata, etc.), but this topic is about how folks are actually implementing and seting up the skill challenges. So, yes you could call it either adventure or skill challenge design.

 

[Stalker0]

One thing I've learned about skill challenges is...the ones that avoid combat only work for certain parties. Some groups like avoiding combat, and these kinds are good. Many like combat, and so avoiding it isn't truely a success.

What I recommend more is have the combat regardless of the success or failure of the challenge, but gives the players some benefit if they succeed. That lets them feel that the challenge had real meaning.

 

[bert1000]

Of course there is the downside of character death. Maybe combat resulting from a failed skill challenge should not be worth any Xp? After all, the players might have been able to avoid said combat. And the PCs still get the gold from the encounter.

This was my point of the level +4 encounter as a meaningful "failure". There is a real threat of character death vs. simply a level +0 like in many of the published challanges.

And if you had a level +4 encounter that gave no XP then yes that would be a very meaningful consequence of failing a skill challenge (not sure I'd want to use this a lot through)

I'm starting to think that
1) combat (vs. no combat) is not a great "failure" consequence to a skill challenge
2) if you do use a combat, the success of a skill challenge should be greater than the XP of the combat
3) if you do use a combat, it should either be worth less XP than normal or be a real threat to the party (level +3/4) that they could have otherwise avoided.

So if you still want combat as a failure in the P1 example:
1) Sucess = 3000xp
2) Failure = combat at 1/2 XP = 1500XP, still get wealth(?)

 

[SlyFlourish]

You bring up two questions I want people's thoughts on:

1. should you announce a challenge?

2. What sort of clues should you give for the skills?

We have some trouble with challenges in our game. As a DM, I love them, but the players aren't always into them. My wife isn't a fan. She thinks they're too long and boring so I tend to keep them short and simple.

 

[justanobody]

Well you don't need an intro for the challenge to say hee is is like telling peopel to roll initiative, but you could announce it. I wouldn't.

No clues. Part of the challenge is figuring out how to solve it.