Hit Points & Healing Surges Finally Explained!

Good post Celebrim, it's exactly what I've been thinking about alot of decisions as far as 4e's design... I think the reason people have a hard time expressing it is... there's no nice way to say... imo, D&D has gotten even more abstract, silly and nonsensical without everyone who enjoys it getting up in arms about the statement. And no matter how hard you try to show some that there actually are gradations of abstractness (Runequest vs. Big Eyes Small Mouth) they will claim if it never modeled realism in the first place then it doesn't mater how abstract it gets, which is just not true for many.
 

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Celebrim, I'm not sure if I'm misunderstanding you, or not, but I am failing to see where we disagree.

We disagree over something very specific. A group of people have been broadly painted as failing to understand that hit points are (or have been) abstract, and that this failure of understanding whether through stupidity or ignorance on their part is one of the principle hurdles to accepting 4e.

Analogies are frought with danger, but allow me to test one here. Suppose it was known that I disliked Roquefort. Suppose then someone stated:

"I'm tired of these Roquefort haters. You just don't know how sick and tired I am of people not giving Roquefort a chance just because it is an French cheese. This French hatred is so tiring. I keep trying to explain to them that Roquefort is the king of cheeses, but they can't get over their bias against all things French enough to even give it a fair try. I've tried explaining to them that it's a moldy, crumbly, slightly moist cheese with a strong tangy flavor, but they keep insisting that it's not."

That would be a fair rant <i>if in fact I didn't like Roquefort because it was French</i>, or if in general there was a widespread dislike of Roquefort solely because it was French, . But if in fact I didn't like Roquefort but did like Brie, or if in fact I was French, then the argument that I don't like Roquefort sole because it's French falls apart.

So why would someone insist that the reason I don't like Roquefort is because it's French, rather than the more obvious hypothesis that I don't like moldy, crumbly, slightly moist cheese with a strong tangy flavor? Well, one reason might be that having the former reason is unfair and paints me in a very bad light, as it's an opinion that would be rather difficult to sustain. By making a strawman out of objections to the system, such as suggesting that people who played 'the old way' would say things like, "The poison dart flies through your eye socket, take 2 damage.", they try to make people who disagree with them look ridiculous and stupid.

Not that it matters, but in point of fact, I like Roquefort. However, I would sympathize with anyone that didn't like Roquefort, because I readily admit that stringent acidic cheese riddled with pencilluim mold is not the sort of dining that is easy on everyone's pallette. It's a rather extreme cheese, maybe not the most extreme imaginable, but hardly something I'd think everyone would like.

My statement that you quoted is, certainly, only subset of the greater combat schema change you mention; but I don't see how it's contradicts anything you're saying.

I contradicted your statement in a very narrow and very specific fashion. If I really didn't like Roquefort, in a conversation about why Roquefort didn't have wider acceptance, it would matter very much why I didn't like it.
 

"I'm tired of these Roquefort haters. You just don't know how sick and tired I am of people not giving Roquefort a chance just because it is an French cheese. This French hatred is so tiring. I keep trying to explain to them that Roquefort is the king of cheeses, but they can't get over their bias against all things French enough to even give it a fair try. I've tried explaining to them that it's a moldy, crumbly, slightly moist cheese with a strong tangy flavor, but they keep insisting that it's not."
Ah, but should it cheese you off (I pun!) as much if this individual instead says, "I understand you don't like Roquefort. In fact, it was hard for me to get used to. Here's how I did it: I took this can of sardines, see? And this turnip? I got out my food processer..."

The first person's calling you an idiot (because they're boorish), and the second person is trying to make good conversation. I see a whole lot of the second person, and not a whole lot of the first person (at least, not that mods tolerate around here).

My posts here are not meant to be argumentative at all. I don't want to "win" or prove you wrong, or what-not. What I would like to do (with a 99% chance of failure, but what do you get if you never try?) is present Roquefort to you in such a manner that you may come (nay, be compelled!), in the fulness of time, to enjoy its crumbly, moldy goodness. Because as an excited Roquefort-lover, I want everyone to experience Roquefort to its fullest. I hated both beer and blues until a beer-drinking blues-player took it upon himself to present them both to me in a way that I could appreciate.

Now, with that said, I would like to disavow everything I said about Roquefort in the previous post. Roquefort sucks. Parmeseana Reggiano is the real "King of Cheeses!"
 

My personal issue with healing surges is that it kind of screws up the narrative arc -- the whole "almost die, then recover, then repeat" is a wonky kind of swing. I'd honestly just prefer a "short rest heals all hp" kind of system, so that hp fully represents short-burst endurance. Tracking longer term endurance with a different system than HP (such as with rations, or something) would be preferable to me.
 

Ah, but should it cheese you off (I pun!) as much if this individual instead says, "I understand you don't like Roquefort. In fact, it was hard for me to get used to. Here's how I did it: I took this can of sardines, see? And this turnip? I got out my food processer..."

The above would generate much the same feeling in me as when my mother would say to me, "Here, you should try some of this cole slaw.", and I would reply, "Thank you, but I don't like cole slaw.", and she would reply, "Yes, but this is good cole slaw."

There is a certain amount of condescension inherent in the attitude, however well meaning. What if I don't like sardine or turnips? While it's true that some preferences are based on ignorance, it is by no means certain that all preferences are based on ignorance and in particular you should avoid immediately assuming that any dissagreement in a opinion with your own is based on ignorance.

My mother simply found it impossible to imagine that I wouldn't like anything that she did like. In point of fact, I eventually discovered I did like cole slaw - just not the cole slaw prepared in the style that she liked. I still don't like the cole slaws my mother likes. My dislike of them was based on familiarity - not ignorance.

In the same way, I find it hard to imagine that there are many people who are actually veterens D&D players that don't accept that hit points are abstract. They might not accept that hit points are fully abstract. They might not accept that hit points should be as abstract as they are in 4e. But actual ignorance of the fact that in PC's the majority of their hitpoints represent something other than physical hardiness seems very hard for me to fathom given how much that fact is a part of D&D lore since the days of 1st edition. People tell jokes about it. They make cartoons about it. They laugh about it. They rant against it. They write essays on it. They mock it. They praise it, and some people have outright dropped the game system over it. Gygax devoted a significant portion of page 82 of the 1st edition DMG to the topic, beginning with the statement: "It is quite unreasonable to assume that as a character gains levels of ability in his or her class that a corresponding gain in actual ability to sustain physical damage takes place."

But if you read what Gygax wrote on page 82 in its entirety, it becomes quite clear that Gygax's abstraction and that of 4e flow from largely incompatible philosophies. For one thing, he ends that section by stating, "However, having sustained 40 or 50 hit points of damage, our lordly fighter will be covered with a number of nicks, scratches, cuts and bruises. It will require a long period of rest and recuperation to regain the physical and metaphysical peak of 95 hit points." The emphasis is mine, and its intended to show that even though Gygax thought of hit points in partially abstract terms, the basic assumption is that the metaphysical injury to ones luck, destiny, or skill could be expected to heal naturally no faster than we'd expect his physical injuries to heal. The modern philosophy suggests that if you've managed to survive the recent past, then the game should quickly reset so that the experience can be repeated.

Gygax was thinking more along the lines of a dungeon as a whole, where the wearing away of hit points over the course of the entire foray would eventually force a retreat of some sort (usually to a haven outside of the dungeon) in order to reset. Success is therefore defined as the ability to horde hit points until you obtain your goal, and the more experienced party will shine compared to the less experienced in its ability to horde every single hit point. In the 4e module, the emphasis is less on the environment as a whole, as on the single encounter and the challenge it provides in and of itself. The only granularity is at the level of healing surges, as any loss of hit points smaller than a single healing surge is more or less identical, and even this requires little real consumption of resources given the emphasis on resetting and refortifying the party. Hording every hit point isn't as important. Preserving resources across a long series of encounters is often unnecessary, and even undesirable.

The result is much more markedly different from 1st edition than 3rd edition was, and moves away from the feel of 'doing 1st edition better than 1st edition did' that brought me back to D&D. With 1st edition (and 2nd) I was happy with the feel and the style, but not the rules. With 4e, I'm sure the rules are mostly fine, but I've no interest in the feel or the style.
 

Not so sure it's disingenuous, given your post. You claim that you understand that hp can represent all kind of things other than physical health, but at the same time you seem to imply that characters cannot be physically injured when they are at full hitpoints.
Yes, I do "claim" that.

And you're not disputing my claim that I understand that hit points are abstract (as does nearly everyone I've ever played D&D with). You're simply saying that since my abstraction of hit points doesn't match yours, I must be doing it wrong.

The "I'm still horribly wounded, but ready to go" thing is, I have to admit, one of my favorite 4E apologisms.

DM: Your new friend and companion, Sir Perris, arrives at breakfast the next morning. The gash in his shoulder is seeping blood through the dressing, his eye is swollen half closed, and he slightly favors the right leg the wight tried to make its necrotic meal.

Sir Perris: Good morrow, friends! The dungeon awaits! Let us ride!

Other PCs: "Let the priest heal you, good knight." "Maybe we should rest here for a few more days." "Has your wound been debrided?"

Sir Perris: I assure you, I am right as rain and prepared to defeat evil!

Other PCs: "Uh ... "

DM: He really is. He's at full health. I promise, I'll let you know if he's really hurt. Even if he's not, you know, wounded.

And it's even better when you use the trick with villains!

DM: Yes, Lord Gurtag, thrall of Graz'zt, is badly injured, with multiple gashes in his hide, hideous bruises and contusions, and a smile missing a couple of recently knocked-out teeth.

PCs: Somebody beat us to the knave! Wounded as he is, at least he'll be easier prey.

DM: No, no, no. He's fully healed and ready to fight. Sorry if I gave you the wrong impression.

PCs: Ah ... he's undead, then.

DM: Nope. He's just gritting his teeth through the pain.

PCs: Okay ... if he were actually wounded, how would you describe him to let us know?

DM: Pretty much exactly the same way.

PCs: Okay ...

Like I said, one of my favorites.
 

Spells are that widget. A nap is not that widget.
Spells are not that widget as they stop making sense if you think too hard about them.

Consider this example:

A 100hp fighter is driven near to death, he is in negative HP. He is healed back to 9hp. He is concious but on a fraction of his total HP.

A 10hp fighter is driven near to death, he is in negative hp. He is healed for the same amount as Fighter 1 and is back to 9hp. He is concious and near to peak performance.

This does not compute. HP as damage make very little sense. Healing, whether magical or not under such a system makes little sense.

HP representing your ability to continue to act, to push yourself past normal endurance or to continue on despite having been blasted, burned, dipped in acid, stabbed gouged or generally blown up makes some sense and is as easily explained using magical restoration of HP as not.
 

My personal issue with healing surges is that it kind of screws up the narrative arc -- the whole "almost die, then recover, then repeat" is a wonky kind of swing. I'd honestly just prefer a "short rest heals all hp" kind of system, so that hp fully represents short-burst endurance. Tracking longer term endurance with a different system than HP (such as with rations, or something) would be preferable to me.

Umm, not to poke the tiger, but isn't that what we have in 4e? My players use healing surges to heal back up to full (or nearly so) in every short rest. I think you could choose to flavor HP as short-term endurance and surges as long-term endurance quite easily.

PS: I really enjoyed your posts about giving combats a narrative arc. I've been using those ideas in my combats and it's helped immensely. They're a lot more interesting.
 

A 100hp fighter is driven near to death, he is in negative HP. He is healed back to 9hp. He is concious but on a fraction of his total HP.

A 10hp fighter is driven near to death, he is in negative hp. He is healed for the same amount as Fighter 1 and is back to 9hp. He is concious and near to peak performance.
If hit points are abstract (and we're all agreed they are, right?), then why do people assume they stop being abstract when it's "healing hit points" as opposed to "damage in hit points"?
 

If hit points are abstract (and we're all agreed they are, right?), then why do people assume they stop being abstract when it's "healing hit points" as opposed to "damage in hit points"?
If HP are abstract why are we even having the discussion. If they are abstract then both magical and non magical healing can make perfect sense.

Personally I see HP as representing ability to keep going. Damage can represent physical injuries, exhaustion, terror, whatever you want it to include. Healing, whether magical or not, represents the ability to push yourself beyond the norm.

Its like the monty python sketch, you may have chopped off my arms but I will still headbut you to death.
 

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