My sanity won't make much of a meal.
FYI, I'm open to suggestions from all readers for more Aberrant Vestiges. You don't even have to write them up mechanically... just throw out ideas!
New Class -- Historian (think Indiana Jones / Tomb Raider)
- Thread starter Inlicere
- Start date
My sanity won't make much of a meal.
FYI, I'm open to suggestions from all readers for more Aberrant Vestiges. You don't even have to write them up mechanically... just throw out ideas!
WanderingMystic
Hero
I would start by looking at powers that aberrants have and begin there
WanderingMystic
Hero
If you have FRPG then I have an idea to run by you that I am contemplating for my game and your class. Instead of letting them use Esoteric Knowledge to pick a power from any class which doesn't use the Martial power type to instead have them chose from Spellscared powers. This means that all of the abilities will be arcane, but will keep flavor decidedly different from any "known" ability representing the fact that the powers they have unearthed are rare and sometimes flawed forgotten bit of magic that most other have never even heard of. This is not something that I am suggesting that you implement yourself more asking how you think it might fit with the feel of the class and if would hinder thier power.
I think that's perfectly legit, although it would give them a much smaller pool of powers to choose from. Since the Spellscared powers have a distinctive flavor (IMO), you might also want to give a explanation for why historians are gaining this "flavor" of power in your campaign (as opposed to sweetness-and-light powers, for example)... maybe associate these powers with aberrant lore, since the historian already deals with those creatures? Just a thought.
I share the same concern of wanting the esoteric knowledge abilities to feel different from the powers of "present-day" classes. In my game, I accomplish that by (a) asking the player to reflavor any powers they choose from other classes to make them feel "ancient." and (b) offering to work with the player to create a totally new power of the appropriate level... obviously, I don't have a problem with home-brew material!
WanderingMystic
Hero
Well I was originally planing on introducing Spellscared powers as mutations from dealing with extreme or unstable mystical energy. I picture this being ideal for the Historian, by constantly exposing themselves to lost artifacts and hobbling together bits and pieces of forgotten lore they can learn to tap into this energy
King-Panda
First Post
I love when people post homebrewed classes, but I've learned my lesson in using them before they've had at least a single major update. I'm glad to see you updated this class, and I'm giving it a good look over right now. I haven't read any farther than the first few At-Wills, but I have three questions about class features and the "Improvised" keyword that I'd like answered please!
Question 1: When retraining a power gained from another class through the Historian class feature Esoteric Knowledge, does the new "retrained" power have to be equal to the level (or lower) of the old "original" power? Example: A Historian gains an Encounter Attack power from another power source at 4th level. When she reaches 7th level, she decides to retrain her 4th level Encounter Attack power for a new one. Does the new power still have to be 4th level or lower, or can she choose one of 7th level or lower?
Question 2: In one encounter, can a Historian make Practical Knowledge checks for different monsters, and retain bonuses against all monsters he made a check for? Example: A Historian is fighting a Kobold Skirmisher and a Kobold Slinger. In the first round, he makes a check against the Skirmisher, and in the second, he makes one against the Slinger (alternately, he could've used 2 minor actions in first round, it doesn't change anything for this example). Does he retain bonuses against both monsters for the rest of the encounter, or just against the newest "checked" monster (in this case, the Slinger)?
If not, I'm puzzled over how this would work fluff-wise. If a Historian were to remember something about creature 1, and then something a few moments later about creature 2, why would he "forget" what weaknesses he can exploit about creature 1?
Question 3: The new keyword Improvised states: If you deal damage with an attack that has this keyword, the target’s next turn is treated as a limited action surprise round. This “surprise” does not cause your target to grant combat advantage.
The Suprise round rules on page 267 of the PH state:
(1)Limited Action: If you get to act in the surprise round, you can take a standard action, a move action, or a minor action (see “Action Types”). You can also take free actions, but you can’t spend action points. After every nonsurprised combatant has acted, the surprise round ends, and you can act normally in subsequent rounds.
(2) Surprised: If you’re surprised, you can’t take any actions (not even free actions, immediate actions, or opportunity actions), and you grant combat advantage to all attackers. As soon as the surprise round ends, you are no longer surprised.
When you say the target's next turn is treated as a "limited action surprise round", does that mean that target's next turn is as normal, but follow (1)'s rules? Or, does it mean it follows both (1) and (2), MINUS the part in (2) that says they grant CA (therefore, they are limited in actions and Surprised)?
I see where you are trying to go with this, but I think the suprise round mechanic probably shouldn't be taken out of it's context (the real suprise round), if only simply for clarity. I was thinking at first you could use the Dazed condition, but that seems a bit overpowered.
Maybe Improvised could read as (1) above does, with this change: If you deal damage with an attack that has this keyword, the target may only take a single Standard, Move, or Minor action on it's next turn. The target may still take Free, Opportunity, and Immediate actions.
I'm not sure how this works balance wise, but it gets rid of the suprise round link and still retains the mechanics.
I just had an idea, that, although weaker (maybe) than the above, adds some interesting tactics to Improvised. What do you think of: If you deal damage with an attack that has this keyword, the target is unable to take Opportunity or Immediate actions until the end of it's next turn.
I have no idea if that would be better or worse power-wise, but it would make initiative more important for the Historian, and would add to it's defender/controller aspects. (BTW, having a No-Role class was an excellent idea, kudos on giving it a shot!)
Question 1: When retraining a power gained from another class through the Historian class feature Esoteric Knowledge, does the new "retrained" power have to be equal to the level (or lower) of the old "original" power? Example: A Historian gains an Encounter Attack power from another power source at 4th level. When she reaches 7th level, she decides to retrain her 4th level Encounter Attack power for a new one. Does the new power still have to be 4th level or lower, or can she choose one of 7th level or lower?
Question 2: In one encounter, can a Historian make Practical Knowledge checks for different monsters, and retain bonuses against all monsters he made a check for? Example: A Historian is fighting a Kobold Skirmisher and a Kobold Slinger. In the first round, he makes a check against the Skirmisher, and in the second, he makes one against the Slinger (alternately, he could've used 2 minor actions in first round, it doesn't change anything for this example). Does he retain bonuses against both monsters for the rest of the encounter, or just against the newest "checked" monster (in this case, the Slinger)?
If not, I'm puzzled over how this would work fluff-wise. If a Historian were to remember something about creature 1, and then something a few moments later about creature 2, why would he "forget" what weaknesses he can exploit about creature 1?
Question 3: The new keyword Improvised states: If you deal damage with an attack that has this keyword, the target’s next turn is treated as a limited action surprise round. This “surprise” does not cause your target to grant combat advantage.
The Suprise round rules on page 267 of the PH state:
(1)Limited Action: If you get to act in the surprise round, you can take a standard action, a move action, or a minor action (see “Action Types”). You can also take free actions, but you can’t spend action points. After every nonsurprised combatant has acted, the surprise round ends, and you can act normally in subsequent rounds.
(2) Surprised: If you’re surprised, you can’t take any actions (not even free actions, immediate actions, or opportunity actions), and you grant combat advantage to all attackers. As soon as the surprise round ends, you are no longer surprised.
When you say the target's next turn is treated as a "limited action surprise round", does that mean that target's next turn is as normal, but follow (1)'s rules? Or, does it mean it follows both (1) and (2), MINUS the part in (2) that says they grant CA (therefore, they are limited in actions and Surprised)?
I see where you are trying to go with this, but I think the suprise round mechanic probably shouldn't be taken out of it's context (the real suprise round), if only simply for clarity. I was thinking at first you could use the Dazed condition, but that seems a bit overpowered.
Maybe Improvised could read as (1) above does, with this change: If you deal damage with an attack that has this keyword, the target may only take a single Standard, Move, or Minor action on it's next turn. The target may still take Free, Opportunity, and Immediate actions.
I'm not sure how this works balance wise, but it gets rid of the suprise round link and still retains the mechanics.
I just had an idea, that, although weaker (maybe) than the above, adds some interesting tactics to Improvised. What do you think of: If you deal damage with an attack that has this keyword, the target is unable to take Opportunity or Immediate actions until the end of it's next turn.
I have no idea if that would be better or worse power-wise, but it would make initiative more important for the Historian, and would add to it's defender/controller aspects. (BTW, having a No-Role class was an excellent idea, kudos on giving it a shot!)
King-Panda
First Post
I've been looking through the Historian's powers, and I have all kinds of questions. I'll continue looking, and try to split these up into different posts so they aren't so large.
I noticed that A) all of your encounter power levels have an attack specialized for the 4 paths of the Historian, B) all of your utility levels have At-Will, Encounter, and Daily powers, and that C) all of your daily powers either have a miss function or the Reliable keyword. Super ****ing bravo man, I can't explain how important these things are to me. First off, having specialized encounter powers AND all around powers all the way to 27 really makes your choice important, and really helps make your Historian unique in feel, and lowers pigeon-holing to boot. Secondly, just having the option to take any kind of utility power makes a big difference to me. No classes (I think) have At-Will utilities all the way to 22 (which may be a balance thing, I'll check that out later). Lastly, the "Wiff" factor of 4E really rears it's ugly mug when using dailys. My players get <i>super bummed</i> when they waste their dailys, and I imagine you've seen it happen too. Which, unfortunately, brings up a balance issue.
IMO, the majority of the daily powers for all the classes should do something on a miss, contain the Reliable keyword, or do something similar, but they don't. I'm not gonna go look through all of them, but I imagine a good chunk of dailys for the core classes don't have any of the three. Which, sadly, makes the Historian look overpowered in this regard (on paper). I'm not one to constantly shout at "OMGZ BROKEN NERF PLZ" whenever I can; I'm usually hesitant to call something on it's power, so please consider this carefully. I'm not asking you to change it, but just to be aware that it's there, and that in play, this might make all the other classes jealous.
I've noticed that something like 4-5 of your powers (mostly in earlier levels) give a bonus to the Historians attacks, e.g. Dex +2 vs Ref. I assume you know this, talented as you are, but 4th edition is not keen on handing out untyped bonuses to attack rolls. I looked (more like skimmed) at all the powers (specifically the attack line for each power) of the Rogue, Ranger, Warlord, Fighter, and Wizard. Unless I missed one or two, it didn't look like the Warlord, Rogue, or Wizard got any bonuses to attack for any of their powers. The fighter and ranger got a handful, but the bonus was obviously a direct part of the power (like an accurate power that gives up damage), and not used to balance it against other powers (which is what I'm assuming <i>some</i> of these bonuses you give are for). I don't want to tell you to get rid of them, but you might look back over them and compare them (I assume you did this when you made them) to some powers from other classes that are similar.
Alright, on with the specific questions. I've gotten up to lvl 5 Dailys so far. Good Luck!
1: Compare the Historian At-Will "Quit While You're Ahead" (Shifting 1+Dex after the attack) to the Rogue At-Will "Deft Strike" (move 2 squares before the attack) and the Ranger At-Will "Nimble Strike" (Shift 1 before or after the attack). I see you tried to balance the power with the requirement "You must have either combat advantage or Practical Knowledge on the target" and that it only does Int damage, but the idea of being able to shift 5 squares (assuming 18 dex) and attack as a standard action seems a bit too powerful to me. I think... I'd be fine with just dropping it down to Dex mod, instead of 1+dex mod. Maybe.
2: For the Daily Attack 1 "Cut and Run" it says you may move a number of squares equal to your speed +2 "without incurring a penalty to attack rolls or granting combat advantage". What do you mean by that? It sounds like they get to take a fake "run" action without the penalties or granting CA, but they still draw OA's. Is that what you were going for?
3: For the Daily Attack 1 "Flying Tackle" (awesome, btw), does the historian get to choose what square adjacent to his target he lands prone in after the tackle? I assume the secondary basic attack is made after the historian has landed prone (and therefore at a -2 penalty)?
4: For the Daily Attack 1 "Hail of Objects", you might just want to say under miss "miss: Half Damage, and this power does not have the Improvised keyword". This suggestion goes for any other powers that have this same miss feature that I have yet to read.
5: For the Daily Attack 1 "Lead Them On", why did you choose to include a (save ends) for the Mark condition? (I've read some higher level powers since I wrote this question, and saw you did it a few more times, but the questions still there; why?) Also, if the Historian is completely surrounded (for example, 8 med. sized enemies adjacent to a med. sized historian), consider the following.
Under "Moving Through Occupied Squares" on page 283 of the PH, it says this:
Enemy: You normally can’t move through an enemy’s space unless that enemy is helpless or two size categories larger or smaller than you. Moving into a nonhelpless enemy’s space provokes an opportunity attack from that enemy, because you left a square adjacent to the enemy. (Some powers let you move through an enemy’s square without provoking an opportunity attack.)
I interpret that as saying you can't ever move through a nonhelpless enemy's space unless they are two size categories larger than you, or you have a power that allows you to move through enemy's squares. Therefore, by (what I think are) your RAW, the historian could not use the granted shift of this power if they were surrounded. Is this what you intended? If not, would it be unreasonable to allow the historian to shift through one of his enemies squares (maybe just if surrounded, but that might make the power too messy)?
6: The Utility 2 "Its Own Worst Enemy" seems, on paper, a bit overpowered. The Historian gets a "get out of bleeding free" card, AND the monster gets hit (if the hit is a crit, ouch). I'm glad you said "takes damage as if the attack had hit it" instead "is hit with the attack", because that would assuredly be overpowered. Anyways, I'm not sure how to change this without breaking it. Maybe instead of it hitting itself, it could grant CA (I like this) or get hit with a condition?
7: The Encounter Attack 3 "Quick Save" is a sweet ability. Totally heroic, swarthy-like in my mind. With the pulling of your ally, I assume the ally moves through the exact same squares you enter (and then leave), until you end your movement? What if you one of you are large size?
8: On the Daily Attack 5 "One-Two Punch", you have listed under the secondary attack "Miss: No damage". I don't think this line is necessary as if the secondary hits, all it does is damage (no effects/conditions/etc). This change would make it look more like the Daily attack 9 "If At First You Don't Succeed".
9: For the Daily 5 "Stick Like Glue", the wording on the movement sounds a little wonky. How does this sound?:
Until the end of the encounter, your first 2 squares of movement and/or your first square of shifting are not counted towards your normal movement limit if they bring you closer to the target.
Thanks a million for reading these, I want to tell you again how awesome a job you did on this class. Keep up the good work! I'll have more questions in a bit.
I noticed that A) all of your encounter power levels have an attack specialized for the 4 paths of the Historian, B) all of your utility levels have At-Will, Encounter, and Daily powers, and that C) all of your daily powers either have a miss function or the Reliable keyword. Super ****ing bravo man, I can't explain how important these things are to me. First off, having specialized encounter powers AND all around powers all the way to 27 really makes your choice important, and really helps make your Historian unique in feel, and lowers pigeon-holing to boot. Secondly, just having the option to take any kind of utility power makes a big difference to me. No classes (I think) have At-Will utilities all the way to 22 (which may be a balance thing, I'll check that out later). Lastly, the "Wiff" factor of 4E really rears it's ugly mug when using dailys. My players get <i>super bummed</i> when they waste their dailys, and I imagine you've seen it happen too. Which, unfortunately, brings up a balance issue.
IMO, the majority of the daily powers for all the classes should do something on a miss, contain the Reliable keyword, or do something similar, but they don't. I'm not gonna go look through all of them, but I imagine a good chunk of dailys for the core classes don't have any of the three. Which, sadly, makes the Historian look overpowered in this regard (on paper). I'm not one to constantly shout at "OMGZ BROKEN NERF PLZ" whenever I can; I'm usually hesitant to call something on it's power, so please consider this carefully. I'm not asking you to change it, but just to be aware that it's there, and that in play, this might make all the other classes jealous.
I've noticed that something like 4-5 of your powers (mostly in earlier levels) give a bonus to the Historians attacks, e.g. Dex +2 vs Ref. I assume you know this, talented as you are, but 4th edition is not keen on handing out untyped bonuses to attack rolls. I looked (more like skimmed) at all the powers (specifically the attack line for each power) of the Rogue, Ranger, Warlord, Fighter, and Wizard. Unless I missed one or two, it didn't look like the Warlord, Rogue, or Wizard got any bonuses to attack for any of their powers. The fighter and ranger got a handful, but the bonus was obviously a direct part of the power (like an accurate power that gives up damage), and not used to balance it against other powers (which is what I'm assuming <i>some</i> of these bonuses you give are for). I don't want to tell you to get rid of them, but you might look back over them and compare them (I assume you did this when you made them) to some powers from other classes that are similar.
Alright, on with the specific questions. I've gotten up to lvl 5 Dailys so far. Good Luck!
1: Compare the Historian At-Will "Quit While You're Ahead" (Shifting 1+Dex after the attack) to the Rogue At-Will "Deft Strike" (move 2 squares before the attack) and the Ranger At-Will "Nimble Strike" (Shift 1 before or after the attack). I see you tried to balance the power with the requirement "You must have either combat advantage or Practical Knowledge on the target" and that it only does Int damage, but the idea of being able to shift 5 squares (assuming 18 dex) and attack as a standard action seems a bit too powerful to me. I think... I'd be fine with just dropping it down to Dex mod, instead of 1+dex mod. Maybe.
2: For the Daily Attack 1 "Cut and Run" it says you may move a number of squares equal to your speed +2 "without incurring a penalty to attack rolls or granting combat advantage". What do you mean by that? It sounds like they get to take a fake "run" action without the penalties or granting CA, but they still draw OA's. Is that what you were going for?
3: For the Daily Attack 1 "Flying Tackle" (awesome, btw), does the historian get to choose what square adjacent to his target he lands prone in after the tackle? I assume the secondary basic attack is made after the historian has landed prone (and therefore at a -2 penalty)?
4: For the Daily Attack 1 "Hail of Objects", you might just want to say under miss "miss: Half Damage, and this power does not have the Improvised keyword". This suggestion goes for any other powers that have this same miss feature that I have yet to read.
5: For the Daily Attack 1 "Lead Them On", why did you choose to include a (save ends) for the Mark condition? (I've read some higher level powers since I wrote this question, and saw you did it a few more times, but the questions still there; why?) Also, if the Historian is completely surrounded (for example, 8 med. sized enemies adjacent to a med. sized historian), consider the following.
Under "Moving Through Occupied Squares" on page 283 of the PH, it says this:
Enemy: You normally can’t move through an enemy’s space unless that enemy is helpless or two size categories larger or smaller than you. Moving into a nonhelpless enemy’s space provokes an opportunity attack from that enemy, because you left a square adjacent to the enemy. (Some powers let you move through an enemy’s square without provoking an opportunity attack.)
I interpret that as saying you can't ever move through a nonhelpless enemy's space unless they are two size categories larger than you, or you have a power that allows you to move through enemy's squares. Therefore, by (what I think are) your RAW, the historian could not use the granted shift of this power if they were surrounded. Is this what you intended? If not, would it be unreasonable to allow the historian to shift through one of his enemies squares (maybe just if surrounded, but that might make the power too messy)?
6: The Utility 2 "Its Own Worst Enemy" seems, on paper, a bit overpowered. The Historian gets a "get out of bleeding free" card, AND the monster gets hit (if the hit is a crit, ouch). I'm glad you said "takes damage as if the attack had hit it" instead "is hit with the attack", because that would assuredly be overpowered. Anyways, I'm not sure how to change this without breaking it. Maybe instead of it hitting itself, it could grant CA (I like this) or get hit with a condition?
7: The Encounter Attack 3 "Quick Save" is a sweet ability. Totally heroic, swarthy-like in my mind. With the pulling of your ally, I assume the ally moves through the exact same squares you enter (and then leave), until you end your movement? What if you one of you are large size?
8: On the Daily Attack 5 "One-Two Punch", you have listed under the secondary attack "Miss: No damage". I don't think this line is necessary as if the secondary hits, all it does is damage (no effects/conditions/etc). This change would make it look more like the Daily attack 9 "If At First You Don't Succeed".
9: For the Daily 5 "Stick Like Glue", the wording on the movement sounds a little wonky. How does this sound?:
Until the end of the encounter, your first 2 squares of movement and/or your first square of shifting are not counted towards your normal movement limit if they bring you closer to the target.
Thanks a million for reading these, I want to tell you again how awesome a job you did on this class. Keep up the good work! I'll have more questions in a bit.
dammitbiscuit
First Post
To my knowledge, "stance" and "daily" are supposed to go hand-in-hand. We're certainly not talking Blade Cascade levels of brokenness here, but your Encounter stances don't seem right. No class really has any "always-on" powers beyond what's given to them by their class, paragon path, or epic destiny.
Fighters and barbarians have some really powerful stances and rages that create an "always-on" effect, but they are daily powers and thus the effect only persists for one encounter. If I select the right utility powers as a Historian, by spending three minor actions in the first round or two of combat, I can ensure that I spend EVERY fight:
immune to flanking
immune to fear effects
forcing enemies to spend twice as much movement to reach my position. I can shift away from them, but they can't shift (normally) if it would put them adjacent to me.
The historian already has a large number of class powers and plenty of class feats with additional always-on effects. I recommend that you change powers which are currently Encounter (stance) powers. Depending on original intent, either make them a more powerful Daily stance or Encounter ability that's not a stance - probably part of another action, or a minor or immediate action.
Fighters and barbarians have some really powerful stances and rages that create an "always-on" effect, but they are daily powers and thus the effect only persists for one encounter. If I select the right utility powers as a Historian, by spending three minor actions in the first round or two of combat, I can ensure that I spend EVERY fight:
immune to flanking
immune to fear effects
forcing enemies to spend twice as much movement to reach my position. I can shift away from them, but they can't shift (normally) if it would put them adjacent to me.
The historian already has a large number of class powers and plenty of class feats with additional always-on effects. I recommend that you change powers which are currently Encounter (stance) powers. Depending on original intent, either make them a more powerful Daily stance or Encounter ability that's not a stance - probably part of another action, or a minor or immediate action.
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